Originally posted by schakuhrI don't think we're looking to exclude anything. There's just no reason to post every single possible move. Everyone is welcome to debate the moves here, and if needed to bring up an new idea if one arise.
You should never exclude anything from the vote, and maybe we should discuss a little bit more.
Nyxie
Originally posted by xsWell, first of all, there were never any formal rules laid out.
Oh... so you are going to change the rules now? What is this a pre-vote vote?
If I make a case against following SirLoseALot's losing line for 2 1/2 more moves, and find a couple of people who agree with me can we eliminate Bd6 from the vote also?
Guess I'll just take my ball and go home ðŸ˜
Secondly, if we can show a move to be weak, what's the point in putting it to the vote? The danger is that numerous people will be too lazy to read our 2 and a half pages (so far) of analysis and just take a quick look and think that Qb6 looks nice, and then instantly our game is lost. You have to realise that IM is a top top correspondence chess player and will play the strongest move everytime. If a line is proposed where we play our best, and still come out worse, then that proposed line is faulty. If you are so inclined, find a line where Qb6 gets us an advantage or even board with white playing best moves, and I'll most certainly put it to the vote. As it stands it is a losing move.
When u play chess, and you're trying to narrow down your options, do you look at a move, see that u lose a piece, and then continue to think about it, or do you cast it aside and look at other options. I think the latter, cos that's the only way that chess can be played. Ignore losing lines, and spend that extra time on other lines until you've excluded all apart from the line which u think to be the best.
If you would still vote for Qb6, despite our extensive analysis, then I'll include it. But you have to realise that malicious people may use this to adversely affect our game. They could propose a move that loses our queen immediately, create loads of free accounts, and vote that move as the move to be made. Now, that may be far fetched, but I personally don't want a game that I (and others) have spent a long time working on messed up because u threw your toys out of the pram because we showed your proposal to be weak.
It just makes sense to me (and obviously others) not to include a move which has been shown to be a losing move in the vote, where it may get voted above other better moves, but we're not trying to exclude anybody here, so if you'll stay in the game, I'll add it to the vote.
Samdogg, everyone is welcome to contribute at any stage. I think we need all the help we can get. 😉
D
i would just like some clarification here:
how long is our timeout, and how long is our timebank?
ironman will use it when he needs it, we should use it when we need it.
another thought ragnorak .... are you prepared to give your password to someone else just in case you are unable to get to rhp?
Originally posted by flexmoreIts a 14/14 game, so we're in no panic.
i would just like some clarification here:
how long is our timeout, and how long is our timebank?
ironman will use it when he needs it, we should use it when we need it.
another thought ragnorak .... are you prepared to give your password to someone else just in case you are unable to get to rhp?
I don't see the need to give out my password. I don't see a situation arising that I won't be able to access the site, and if I do disappear off the face of the site, then its easy to start a new set piece game at the same point.
D
lol I haven't read the whole thread, but this idea is cool 😛 But actually, it's harder playing two (or more) against one. I once played a game which was a 1900-rated player and my humble self (between 1000 and 1100) against a 1400-player. We lost. On the other hand, we weren't allowed to talk and each had to move every second turn... I just couldn't follow his strategy. When we swapped it around, me and the 1400 playing against the 1900, we still lost... but it was close. The we turned it around again... the two of them against me... need I say more?
Angie 😀
Originally posted by RagnorakOk...I give up, Bd6 is best.
Well, first of all, there were never any formal rules laid out.
Secondly, if we can show a move to be weak, what's the point in putting it to the vote? The danger is that numerous people will be too lazy to read our 2 and a half pages (so far) of analysis and just take a quick look and think that Qb6 looks nice, and then instantly our game is lost. Yo ...[text shortened]... veryone is welcome to contribute at any stage. I think we need all the help we can get. 😉
D
Could somebody please toss my toys back in the pram? :'(
Ugh, I know I'm low rated and you guys think my opinion probably doesn't matter, but isn't Bd6 pretty much FORCED here? I'm no chess genius, but it seems to me Ironman wants to get the e5 square as an outpost, and we cannot allow this to happen. It seems like all his peices are positioned to exploit this outpost, so we must fight it rather then run. At the very least, Ironman could get a knight on e5, then perhabs sacrefice next move with Nxf7! And then after Kxf7, thanks to Ironman's advanced h pawn, and a supported rook lift, he could play Qg6+! completely unmolested, and then we are defending a major attack that I think we cannot defend despite technicly being up material.
I may be crazy, but I think THIS is his plan, he wants to mate us and finish us off early, he's already attackng our king somewhat. And all that matters is the e5 square, he's set up to win if we ever lose defense of this square. If we do not challenge and defend this square, we will lose quickly. Bd6 develops a peice. Moving the queen is fruitless, it's a loss of tempo and makes queenside castling as an option almost impossible, and more importantly, it pretty much surrenders e5. After Bd6, black is perfectly fine IMHO, it's an even game, we have black, and Ironman doesn't really have much of an edge, which is good, considering Ironman's strongest point of the game is his opening, he's good at every phase, but his opening is truly deadly. He often wins because his opening is so strong, others simply cannot catch up. If we come out of this opening with even odds, we have a chance like anyone else. We better not botch it up too, because I can almost smell an even middlegame coming up, something Ironman rarely sees in his games.
So all this queen tactical maneuvers should be discarded and it wastes time, I don't see really any other logical move but Bd6 at this point. Sure, it sucks to be reduced to ONE move at move 12, but that doesn't mean we are losing if we HAVE to play a certain move in the late opening, it just means the best move is crystal clear, and that's actually a good thing.
So Bd6 must be played, if it is not, we will lose. I know we need a vote and that's the purpose of this thread, but it seems to me every other move is just suicide and the Ironman vs "world" game will become the joke of the century pretty quick if Bd6 isn't played.
I've just walked in here - to the site, the forum and the game after too many years not playing - but I can see you're in heaps of trouble from under-development.. How to rectify this and achieve some sort of parity in the mid-game? You've got two possible options but how can can you gain relief from the tempo of his attack?
Bd6 is the only option. It's a forced move, but the only viable one. Thereafter, simplify if you can, develop and castle queenside to get away from those knights.
Seeing the bitterness of xs, I would like to rehabilitate to some degree 12...Qb6 /since the general consensus of the wrongness of the move started after I insisted that 13...Be7 grants Black an even position/but only in conjuction with 13.O-O-O Ngf6 leading to slightly inferior position, but possibly unclear enough to give Black some chances.
Originally posted by ilywrinall input is good, and thanks for your ideas,
....... leading to slightly inferior position, but possibly unclear enough to give Black some chances.
but:
here is how i see it:
we are the underdogs, we are desperately trying to stabilise, knowing that ironman will use absolutely any tiny advantage to perform an execution (of us).
we have inferiority at the moment,
we want clear equality (or better - dream on ... it is far, far off)
i would classify a draw as a relative win for us.
i believe that if we make it "inferior" and "unclear" then ironman will see it as simply "won".
iif we can draw this game ... then surely he will allow a rematch, with us as white ... then we go for a win 😉
Originally posted by ilywrinGame 868388
Seeing the bitterness of xs, I would like to rehabilitate to some degree 12...Qb6 /[b]since the general consensus of the wrongness of the move started after I insisted that 13...Be7 grants Black an even position/but only in conjuction with 13.O-O-O Ngf6 leading to slightly inferior position, but possibly unclear enough to give Black some chances.
[/b]
I won't put it to the vote yet so. A move was proposed by xs, a continuation provided by yourself (which was shown to be weak), if xs wants to come up with a better continuation, which we can't show to be losing, then we'll of course include it in the votes.
I'll leave it open for 1 more day.
D
Originally posted by ilywrin
Seeing the bitterness of xs, I would like to rehabilitate to some degree 12...Qb6
It seems strategically unsound to me without going through any detailed analysis. Because: (1) You're giving up a measure of control over the centre and white's King side attack, and the means of blunting it (2) Your Queen is effectively out of play with no offensive or defensive opportunities (3) You open the way for the infiltration of the white knights and the opening up of the d file.
D6 is still the way to go.
Originally posted by flexmoreThere is one advantage to going to this complicated and inferior position: it is off the main line /which goes: 12...Bd6 13.Bxd6 Qxd6 14.Ne4;/ so if indeed IM manages to win it will be due to his analysis rather than the simple following of the main line which soon ends with the comment "...and White's chances are preferable"
all input is good, and thanks for your ideas,
but:
here is how i see it:
i believe that if we make it "inferior" and "unclear" then ironman will see it as simply "won".
iif we can draw this game ... then surely he will allow a rematch, with us as white ... then we go for a win 😉