King's Indian

Originally posted by vipiu
maybe you can consider that f5 attacks the center, not necessary only the K side...I also like to play it and it is preatty thematic in KID...it is also used(in GM games) against Samisch even white castles long and attacks with f3-g4(and dont use the argument that I am loosing my games where i use KID 🙂 )

should be played if white have castle king side. When white is castle in queen side then black must attack on queen side. I advice to study games in Saemish (5.f3) system in which white is castling queen side.

Originally posted by Korch
I would play Nd7 with intention of Nc5

Oops, I meant the e7 knight.

Originally posted by buffalobill
Oops, I meant the e7 knight.

Maybe it would be better for black to move that knight not on e7, but on b8 with intention of Nd7-c5

Originally posted by Korch
should be played if white have castle king side. When white is castle in queen side then black must attack on queen side. I advice to study games in Saemish (5.f3) system in which white is castling queen side.

to prove that I am not so wrong:do a search on chesslab.com for older games (Gheorghiu as white Gligoric as black) after you set up the opening as Samisch, you will see that in all their games but one Gligoric played KID using also f5(and white did 000 in those games)...
eh, I agree that he lost 2 out of 3 of these games, but I am sure he also won against other opponents the same opening idea, as he was one of the strong GMs of those times (probably like a superGM today)
I know about these as I've read a book with My Best Games by Florin Gheorghiu.
Ok, maybe it is not considered best option/plan for black, but if a strong GM was playing it in important games, I think it is very playable at FM level and below.

Originally posted by vipiu
to prove that I am not so wrong:do a search on chesslab.com for older games (Gheorghiu as white Gligoric as black) after you set up the opening as Samisch, you will see that in all their games but one Gligoric played KID using also f5(and white did 000 in those games)...
eh, I agree that he lost 2 out of 3 of these games, but I am sure he also won against oth ...[text shortened]... strong GM was playing it in important games, I think it is very playable at FM level and below.

I don`t say that f5 is so bad, but I`m sure for 100% that its not the best option if white is castled queen side.

Originally posted by Korch
You wont be able to liberate diagonal a1-h8, nor put knight on f5 if white wont make exchange exf5 (after f5). And in that position they are not obliged to do that.

Of course, you're right..

But it white refuses the exchange, you may advance you pawn at f4 and make the white's pawn storm a little bit difficult or force the exchange on e4, then the F line is semi-open and the f5 is free for the light squared bishop.

The bishop on f5 is even batter than the knight.
And the c8 is free immediately for a rook.

Cheers
GG

Originally posted by 4gats
Of course, you're right..

But it white refuses the exchange, you may advance you pawn at f4 and make the white's pawn storm a little bit difficult or force the exchange on e4, then the F line is semi-open and the f5 is free for the light squared bishop.

The bishop on f5 is even batter than the knight.
And the c8 is free immediately for a rook.

Cheers
GG

But while black will move their f pawn white may take control over c file (Kb1, Rc1 etc.) and start attack there. (I`m talking about position in diagram).

upd. Better is to start attack on kingside.

Originally posted by Korch
But while black will move their f pawn white may take control over c file (Kb1, Rc1 etc.) and start attack there. (I`m talking about position in diagram).

IMHO, white need 3 moves or more (Kb1, Rc1 and some auxiliary moves like Bd3) to take the control over the c line.
Black needs three moves too to make a break on f5 (Nd7, e.g. Nc5, f5).

In fact, if you advance the pawn to f5 it forces the exchange of the white's dark squared bishop after h6, then the black's f rook may point the c8, then you evacuate the c8 bishop.

If fxe4, the bishop on f5 ma pin the knight (if Nxe4) and the communication between the black's major pieces on the 8 line is restablished.

I dunno what's better but black has several agressive possibilities after f5.

Cheers
GG

Originally posted by 4gats


In fact, if you advance the pawn to f5 it forces the exchange of the white's dark squared bishop after h6, then the black's f rook may point the c8, then you evacuate the c8 bishop.

If fxe4, the bishop on f5 ma pin the knight (if Nxe4) and the communication between the black's major pieces on the 8 line is restablished.

I dunno what's better but black has several agressive possibilities after f5.

Cheers
GG

How will you be able to play h6 until your pawn has not moved to f4 (which makes impossible Bxh6)?

Also in diagram position after 1...Nd7?! white can move 2.h4 (with intention of h5) with dangerous attack for example: 2...f5 3.h5 f4 (threat h6) 5.h5 h6 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.hxg6

2.g4 is also possible.

Originally posted by Korch
How will you be able to play h6 until your pawn has not moved to f4 (which makes impossible Bxh6)?

Also in diagram position after 1...Nd7?! white can move 2.h4 (with intention of h5) with dangerous attack for example: 2...f5 3.h5 f4 (threat h6) 5.h5 h6 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.hxg6

2.g4 is also possible.

Of course, h6 AFTER f5-f4.

You're right, the line you presented is a dangerous attack.
But you can play simply back Nd7-f6, the pawn storm is stopped or very slowed and the h5 pawn can't advance.
Black looses a tempo to get back but the white's pawn structure is weakened on the king's side.
And he may put the bishop on g4, if necessary.

After g2-g4, the h pawn can't advance after Nd7-c5 (aimed by the black's light squared bishop) so the black's attack on the queen's side may continue.

So, if white makes any preventive move against f7-f5, I think the black game is in fact easier because the tension is released.
Now, black don't must play f7-f5 and a knight is transfered to the queen's side.

But I may be wrong, I'm a fast mover 🙂

Cheers
GG

Originally posted by 4gats
Of course, h6 AFTER f5-f4.

You're right, the line you presented is a dangerous attack.
But you can play simply back Nd7-f6, the pawn storm is stopped or very slowed and the h5 pawn can't advance.
Black looses a tempo to get back but the white's pawn structure is weakened on the king's side.
And he may put the bishop on g4, if necessary.

After g2-g4 ...[text shortened]... nsfered to the queen's side.

But I may be wrong, I'm a fast mover 🙂

Cheers
GG

After 1....Nd7 2.h4 Nf6 white can play 3.Nh2 with Be2, g4 and h5

After 1...Nd7 2.g4 Nc5 white can play 3.Ne1, with f3, h4-h5 etc.

Originally posted by Korch
After 1....Nd7 2.h4 Nf6 white can play 3.Nh2 with Be2, g4 and h5

After 1...Nd7 2.g4 Nc5 white can play 3.Ne1, with f3, h4-h5 etc.

In the variant h4, black makes a pawn storm on the a6, b5, b4, the knight c6 must go back, so the knight f6 forks the queen and the dark squared bishop.
End of attack.
It's a huge simplification but it proves another moves are necessary for white, so black has more time to prepare a defense or reinforce the ongoing attack on the queen's side.

In the variant g4, I don't see this kind of rapid response, but a precise pawn storm on the a/b line, the transfer of the knight on c5 and of the bishop on d7 should do the job, I think.
BTW, after g4, the immediate response of the black should be rather a5 and not Nc5 (white may counterattack immediately with b2-b4...).

So, both lines are perfectly possible and dangerous for black, you're right, but they're not so rapid as you present it and the black may be faster.

Please, note, I say "may be faster" and not "will be faster" 🙂

Cheers
GG

Originally posted by 4gats
In the variant h4, black makes a pawn storm on the a6, b5, b4, the knight c6 must go back, so the knight f6 forks the queen and the dark squared bishop.
End of attack.
It's a huge simplification but it proves another moves are necessary for white, so black has more time to prepare a defense or reinforce the ongoing attack on the queen's side.

In the vari ...[text shortened]... aster.

Please, note, I say "may be faster" and not "will be faster" 🙂

Cheers
GG

After 1....Nd7 2.h4 Nf6 3.Nh2 a6 4.Be2 b5 5.Bf3 I dont see real counter play for black

In my opinion after 1...Nd7 2.g4 a5 (2...Nc5 3.Ne1) 3.Ne1 white will have more dangerous attack

Originally posted by Korch
After 1....Nd7 2.h4 Nf6 3.Nh2 a6 4.Be2 b5 5.Bf3 I dont see real counter play for black

In my opinion after 1...Nd7 2.g4 a5 (2...Nc5 3.Ne1) 3.Ne1 white will have more dangerous attack

In the h line,
5. ... b5 (as I proposed...)
6. Ne2 (after Na4 the black takes initiative immediately, I think), Qa5
7. Kb1 Nexd5!
8. exd5 e4 (a break in the center, black gains a minor piece in the next move, the black's squared bishop may points c3, b2, a1).

It's still sharp but playable for black.

I'll see the other line later.

Cheers
GG

Originally posted by 4gats
In the h line,
5. ... b5 (as I proposed...)
6. Ne2 (after Na4 the black takes initiative immediately, I think), Qa5
7. Kb1 Nexd5!
8. exd5 e4 (a break in the center, black gains a minor piece in the next move, the black's squared bishop may points c3, b2, a1).

It's still sharp but playable for black.

I'll see the other line later.

Cheers
GG

Lets continue this line 9.Bxf6 exf3 10.Bxg7 fxe2 11.Bxf8 exd1Q+ 12.Rxd1 Kxf8 13.Qh6+ Kg8 14.Nf3 (threat Ng5) with advantage.