Originally posted by tvochessThey can be complicated but there general principles that apply in all endgames - control open files with your rooks, get your king active, restrict your opponents king mobility, and look for ways to stymie your opponent's pieces for instance by setting up sharp pointy bits with your pawns that knights can't land on.
The overall advice seems to be studying the endgame. I was afraid so. The problem is that there are so many different types of endgames. The most common ones only deal with pieces and perhaps one pawn. However, actually the endgame starts sooner where there are still a lot of pawns (2 to 4 on each side), and it really gets complicated then. Certainly when y ...[text shortened]... h or bishop, which are not very strong in capturing extra pawns.
Thanks all for the feedback!
Hi Tvoches.
This lot....Strewth.
They think all the answers to chess are in the endgame.
Read this book on endings, buy that book on endings...study the Bishop and Knight ending...(good grief)
And as for Robbie's example of a premature attack getting thwarted in a blitz game.
(where was the preamture attack? The unsound sacrifice?)
I read once some Nimrod saying endgames in chess are like putting in golf.
Bollocks.
First you have to get on the green and that means developing a swing
and then learning how to chip out of the rough or a sanpit.
These putt practisers have never heard of or indeed played a hole in one.
I looked at just one of your games.
(it's often a good idea to look at a lad's recent games before throwing endgame manuels at him.)
Both players mess it up by not looking and reading the chess board.
Obviously not taking their time and playing 'first thought' Chess.
An endgame book is not going help. Infact it will do more harm than good
as the lad will be thinking the advice he has been given will sort him out.
Tvches stop feeling sorry for yourself, you have the basics and can see things
which will bade well for the future. Moves like (18...b6) a spotted threat.
It's not a random pawn move. It's an awful pawn move, but there is thought
behind it.
You just have to get into the habit of spotting what is a real threat and what is not.
Look at the position, take it off screen and mess about with it.
Don't be afraid of going for the double-edged sac. On here there is no money at stake.
Take you time and Checks All Checks. (White's 19th move and your reply will
not doubt figure in my next book - thank you.).
Most of all TV. Have fun. It's only a game.
ChessCh1mp - tvochess RHP November 2011
Originally posted by greenpawn34oi! I said nothing about endgames! 🙂
Hi Tvoches.
This lot....Strewth.
They think all the answers to chess are in the endgame.
but only because that's not what he asked about. 🙂 of course they were all right about endgames, and YOU know it! 😀
you're right too, in a way of course. but it's worth mentioning what's the difference: your way is the way of the trickster. the way to exploit blunders. and as fun as it can be, it only takes you so far.
the endgame on the other hand, is the way to understand chess itself. we all begin by fighting that fact, but the further we go the more unavoidable the conclusion becomes: there is no understanding chess without understanding endgames. there is no understanding openings nor middlegame without understanding endgames. yes you can scratch the surface with tactics, but you can't reach deep understandind with them. and you may kick & scream all you want, "no mum, I can go my whole life without needing ANY math at all!", but the cold hard fact remains that endgame knowledge & is paramount to understanding chess.
of course it's quite boring and a real pain in the ass training, but who said chess was gonna be easy, right. 🙂
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Originally posted by greenpawn34"Identifying which threats are real and which not" seems to me the summary of your post.
Hi Tvoches.
(...)
You just have to get into the habit of spotting what is a real threat and what is not.
(...)
Most of all TV. Have fun. It's only a game.
(...)
The game is a few months old, so I don't remember what I was thinking with each move. Why I played 18. .. b6 is a mystery to me. Maybe I forgot that I still had a Q on h1. Or I didn't see that it was now safe to break free. I missed the move Bh3 (didn't notice it was pinned).
Having fun is the main reason why I play chess. I like the tactical calculations. However, as the strength of my opponents increases, they make less mistakes and then I reached the situation prescribed in the first post. From now on, judging threats and learning endgames will be a new challenge.
Originally posted by greenpawn34Half the shots in golf are putts and if you can't putt then you can have the best swing in the world but you'll still be useless.
[b]Hi Tvoches.
This lot....Strewth.
They think all the answers to chess are in the endgame.
Read this book on endings, buy that book on endings...study the Bishop and Knight ending...(good grief)
And as for Robbie's example of a premature attack getting thwarted in a blitz game.
(where was the preamture attack? The unsound sacrifice?)
I read o ...[text shortened]... erests us. All that need be added is that it never reached an endgame.}[/pgn][/b]
Same thing for endgames in chess. You're going to encounter them at some point and if you have to change your whole approach to the game to avoid them then I don't see how that'll make you a better player, and if you're constantly anxious about the possibilty of being in an endgame then where's the fun in that? Better to at least get a basic grounding so that you know what you're doing. Who knows, you might even enjoy being in an endgame.
Sounds like the OP has reached a point where he can't improve unless he starts looking at endgames hence the advice.
Originally posted by wormwoodThis is definitely good to remember. Often I catch myself thinking 'oh, ate least he gets doubled pawns' after a position, where I felt, I should have gotten the edge in the game, but somehow missed the shot. Trading the pieces. And telling myself, it was better then nothing.
I wouldn't worry about that kind of subtleties, they're practically irrelevant compared to the 10x bigger issues of how the open file works for you offensively/defensively (biggest concern) and whether the pawn island with doubled pawn is strong or weak. as often the resulting pawn cluster is like a herd of buffalo that'll trample anything under it (like if ...[text shortened]... you don't have a GOOD reason to do otherwise. centralize, centralize, centralize.
In my case it comes from some unknown imprinted knowledge 'doubled pawns are bad'. But often enough, they can be a nice stronghold...
Hi WW
"it only takes you so far......"
The OP has not reach 'far' yet.
(neither have most of us but I'm willing to admit it.)
Learn the craft first and when you are up there with the good guys THEN you
fine tune and that means learning Endgame technique.
You need that further edge to your sword when you start bumping into players
who can play and defend themselves and are armed to the teeth.
Spotting the two move trick is the first step.
Look at the game I posted, does he need advice on endgames?
I don't think he asked for help on endings, he was talked into it before anyone
looked at his games.
'....there is no understanding chess without understanding endgames.'
A knowledge of endgames does not help your understaning of chess.
There is no mystic in it.
I could show a non player how a King and Rook moves. Nothing more.
Then teach him to mate with a King and Rook v a King. Nothing more.
After ½ a hour he could beat the World champion from this position.
And suddenly he understands and has a deeper of knowledge of Chess?
The basic Rook v King mate is essential knowledge as is learning how to create
a passed pawn. It is simple enough.
That will suffice till he is confident in his middle game to reach a end game.
I fail to see how looking at endings will prevent him from dropping his Queen to
a two move trick as happened in the game. That is where the mystery lay.
"....of course it's quite boring and a real pain in the ass training."
I'd like add also pointless if your are never going to see one.
However a well played endgame from an even position can be a thing of
great beauty and enjoyable to play over and learn from.
A good tactician should be able to spot the shots in that phase of the game as well.
The same rules apply.
Be acitve, look for a weakness, don't get tied down defending.
The only new rule is suddenly the King is a fighting piece.
The art is inflicting a critcial weakness on him in the middle game that you
can target in the ending.
Learn how to inflict (and avoid) these weakness's in the middle game.
You won't learn how to do that just by looking at endings.
TV:
Just keep playing, take each game as it comes, you are learning with every game.
Give each postion when it is your move the attention the game demands.
A sense of danger is nothing you can get shown or pick up from a book.
That only comes with playing.
Hi GG
"Half the shots in golf are putts and if you can't putt then you can have the
best swing in the world but you'll still be useless."
We are still at the placing the ball on the tee and selecting the right club stage.
How is putting going to help him dig his way out of sandpit.
Before the end game the Gods placed the Middle game.
Before the green the golfing Gods placed the fairway.
In other words how is he going learn how to fight in a bad position.
By studying the finer points of RooK and Pawn endings?
And every player gets into bad positions. The weaker you are the more this will happen.
What is the first thing golf pro's teach. The swing.
Also, did you know?
A vast majority of games are won in the club house before teeing off.
(I heard a golfing champion say that once.)
The stonger you get at OTB chess the more this club house mentality seeps in.
Weak players roll up their sleeves and get tore in.
Good players can be lost even before a pawn is pushed.
But that is the subject of another thread for another day.
Originally posted by greenpawn34If I am confident in my putting then I don't have to swing for a hole-in-one which will greatly decrease my swinging errors... same logic applies for learning the endgame in chess.
Hi WW
"it only takes you so far......"
The OP has not reach 'far' yet.
(neither have most of us but I'm willing to admit it.)
Learn the craft first and when you are up there with the good guys THEN you
fine tune and that means learning Endgame technique.
You need that further edge to your sword when you start bumping into players
who can p ...[text shortened]... pawn is pushed.
But that is the subject of another thread for another day.
If you are confident you can win a pawn up in a rook endgame then you aren't going to try and push the position more than it needs to be pushed.
Originally posted by tomtom232If I may add:
If I am confident in my putting then I don't have to swing for a hole-in-one which will greatly decrease my swinging errors... same logic applies for learning the endgame in chess.
If you are confident you can win a pawn up in a rook endgame then you aren't going to try and push the position more than it needs to be pushed.
If the other guy knows you can convert that winning endgame, he will often try risky and even dubious moves to avoid that fate, and you end up winning even faster by taking advantage tactically.
It's a variation on the old "the threat is stronger than its execution" theme.
Originally posted by wormwoodThis is good stuff worth repeating, so I am!
'the endgame on the other hand, is the way to understand chess itself. we all begin by fighting that fact, but the further we go the more unavoidable the conclusion becomes: there is no understanding chess without understanding endgames. there is no understanding openings nor middlegame without understanding endgames. yes you can scratch the surface w ...[text shortened]... he cold hard fact remains that endgame knowledge & is paramount to understanding chess.'
'the endgame on the other hand, is the way to understand chess itself. we all begin by fighting that fact, but the further we go the more unavoidable the conclusion becomes: there is no understanding chess without understanding endgames. there is no understanding openings nor middlegame without understanding endgames. yes you can scratch the surface with tactics, but you can't reach deep understandind with them. and you may kick & scream all you want, "no mum, I can go my whole life without needing ANY math at all!", but the cold hard fact remains that endgame knowledge & is paramount to understanding chess.'
Originally posted by Paul LeggettHere is an example... it shows me saccing a pawn for activity and then when my opponent can trade down into a won ending for him (I am confident that I can make him work for that win and if he doesn't have the skills to attain it then I might snag a draw or even a win) instead he blunders allowing me to force a won ending for me... the thought of defending such an endgame causes him to blunder right into mate.
If I may add:
If the other guy [b]knows you can convert that winning endgame, he will often try risky and even dubious moves to avoid that fate, and you end up winning even faster by taking advantage tactically.
It's a variation on the old "the threat is stronger than its execution" theme.[/b]
Originally posted by greenpawn34Hello lads,
Hi WW
"it only takes you so far......"
The OP has not reach 'far' yet.
(neither have most of us but I'm willing to admit it.)
Learn the craft first and when you are up there with the good guys THEN you
fine tune and that means learning Endgame technique.
You need that further edge to your sword when you start bumping into players
who can p pawn is pushed.
But that is the subject of another thread for another day.
I couldn't remain silent any longer...silly greenpawn.... he would lead a camel to an ice rink if there was someone to appreciate the gaff. (I should know, I'm the same way!)
Greenpawn gives good advice, he's just a bit mixed up. I'll try to rearrange a few things for him...
...Scrambled:
[Learn] the craft [first] and when you are up there with the [good guys] [THEN] you
fine tune [and] that means learning [Endgame technique].
….Unscrambled:
learn Endgame technique first and then you are up there with the good guys.
'....there is no understanding chess without understanding endgames.'
A knowledge of endgames does not help your understanding of chess.
There is no mystic in it.
How would one win any game without understanding basic mates? How could you understand centralization being valuable....without seeing the scope of the pieces on those squares, when there are no inhabitant pawns on them? What good is an open d or e file without pawns and a rook? What good is a rook on the 2nd/7th rank?
How do you teach that in the opening?
And suddenly he understands and has a deeper of knowledge of Chess?
He now understands the value of a Rook. You could tell him how many points all the pieces are worth, and how to get it out in the opening and what an open file is. Still, what exactly is a rook good for?
Because a rook, could, in an endgame, win the game.
….Scrambled:
[However a well played endgame] from an even position can be [a thing] of
[great beauty] and enjoyable to play over and learn from.
….Unscrambled:
However a well played endgame is a thing of great beauty
I agree!
The only new rule is suddenly the King is a fighting piece.
Mr. Pawn thats a dirty lie. Maybe even unforgivable. Almost all important theory is found in the endgame (Note I said IMPORTANT!). Opposition, open file, space, intermezzo, sacrifice, pin, skewer, domination, zugzwang, remove a defender, forks, and many many more... but not all of these can be found in the opening, nor the middlegame (although many can, and I'd agree more in the middlegame than the opening, and more in the ending than the middlegame). Only in the end of the game do all of these devices exist.
The art is inflicting a critical weakness on him in the middle game that you
can target in the ending.
Learn how to inflict (and avoid) these weakness's in the middle game.
You won't learn how to do that just by looking at endings.
two students – one of each school of thinking reply to you Mr. Pawn:
”What is the weakness? I have not studied endings – what the heck am I even targeting?”
vs. “I have studied endgames, I know this is a weakness. I know what to do because I have seen this.”
Before the end game the Gods placed the Middle game.
Before the green the golfing Gods placed the fairway.
In mini-golf there is no fairway – its quicker and requires only putting skill. It also wins more beer and requires less walking. Mini-golf is also the only type of golf which I have seen women go bare breasted out of pure interest of winning the game. Bare breasted women would influence me to study putting.
Drive for show, Put for dough (and flashers).
….scrambled as:
In other words how [is he going learn how to fight] in a bad position.
[By studying the finer points of RooK and Pawn endings?]
….unscrambled:
He is going to learn how to fight by studying the finer points of rook and pawn endings!
Love it!
What is the first thing golf pro's teach. The swing.
What is the first thing chess pro's show children? The ending.
One piece at a time, until we know how they all move. Then we can move on to play a game.
One mate at a time, until we know how they all work. Then we can move on to winning a game.
One device at a time, until we know how they work. Then we can move on to winning a piece.
One advantage at a time, until we know how they look. Then we can move on to getting an advantage.
I heard this manner of thinking many times as a youngster. It worked for every other player I ever saw. (I'm still a complete failure).
Q
Originally posted by PhySiQIt sure is great to be talking chess again!
Hello lads,
I couldn't remain silent any longer...silly greenpawn.... he would lead a camel to an ice rink if there was someone to appreciate the gaff. (I should know, I'm the same way!)
Greenpawn gives good advice, he's just a bit mixed up. I'll try to rearrange a few things for him...
...Scrambled:[i]
[Learn] the craft [first] and when you are u ...[text shortened]... It worked for every other player I ever saw. (I'm still a complete failure).
Q
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Alright, now you're all getting me confused. 😉
What's most important: endgames or two-movers? The answer is probably both ways. Fear for the endgame actually provokes (too) risky moves, and the game shown by GP was actually lost by a two-mover.
What I realize now is that Chesstempo only provides attacking tactics and no defending against tactics. The goal is 'make sure to win at least 2 pawns', and never 'make sure not to lose 2 pawns'. Similar with the endgame practice. The question is never 'try not to get mated'. Why is this?