06 Apr 08
Originally posted by no1marauderThat's the ones I'm aware of. I was hoping you could point me to another.
This one until the number of games in the line get small: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/explorer
This one after:
http://www.chesslive.de/
There are others, but these are the ones I usually rely on.s
It's sad the www.chessgames.com doesn't allow infinite exploration down the opening line anymore. 😛
06 Apr 08
Originally posted by Tatarana CrocodiloThey do if you join for $25 a year (I did).
That's the ones I'm aware of. I was hoping you could point me to another.
It's sad the www.chessgames.com doesn't allow infinite exploration down the opening line anymore. 😛
There's this one: http://www.chesslab.com/PositionSearch.html
There are some games of lower quality there though and the position stats need to be taken with a grain of salt for the reasons DragonFire gives.
07 Apr 08
Originally posted by Tatarana CrocodiloThere's also Shredder's online database which does go down to 1 game variations: http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/opening-database.html
That's the ones I'm aware of. I was hoping you could point me to another.
It's sad the www.chessgames.com doesn't allow infinite exploration down the opening line anymore. 😛
07 Apr 08
Originally posted by no1marauderHere's an amusing example where Black makes his first 11 moves out of Fritz's database and leaves himself with a hopelessly lost game.
I never rely on the Fritz opening database; the online ones are obviously superior.
1 e4 e5
2 Nf3 d6
3 d4 f5?!
4 Nc3 fxe4
5 Nxe4 d5
6 Nxe5 dxe4?
7 Qh5+ g6
8 Nxg6 Nf6
9 Qe5+ Be7
10 Nxh8 Nc6
11 Bb5 Qd5
and resigns a few moves later.
Just because a move is in a database doesn't mean it isn't a bad one.
07 Apr 08
2 edits
Originally posted by no1marauderFritz 11 at least marks 2...d6?, 3...f5?, 9...Be7? (9...Kf7). There are "losing lines" included in Fritz also, which is good. There are some inaccuracies, however.
Here's an amusing example where Black makes his first 11 moves out of Fritz's database and leaves himself with a hopelessly lost game.
1 e4 e5
2 Nf3 d6
3 d4 f5?!
4 Nc3 fxe4
5 Nxe4 d5
6 Nxe5 dxe4?
7 Qh5+ g6
8 Nxg6 Nf6
9 Qe5+ Be7
10 Nxh8 Nc6
11 Bb5 Qd5
and resigns a few moves later.
Just because a move is in a database doesn't mean it isn't a bad one.
And, of course, many may not agree that 2...d6 deserves a '?'. 🙂
edit: or do you mean actual games in the game database? Chessbase's larger (at least "Big" and "Mega", and the one included in newer Fritz boxes) include an amount of low-quality (beginner) games.
07 Apr 08
Originally posted by IkutursoThe "?" doesn't mean that it's a losing line. If you go by that, everything in response to 1. e4 other than 1. ...e5 and 1. ...c5 loses. This is clearly not true. The "?" simply indicates a line that doesn't suits Fritz's strengths according to the authors. Green lines may not even be that good, but Fritz may play them very well. Rybka has its own green lines and lines with "?" for Fritz may be the main lines for it. For example, 1. ...c6 and 1. ....e6 are green lines against e4 for Rybka. Engine books are not that different from your own repertoire. They're based on the strengths (preferences) of the engine. They don't indicate any objective truth.
Fritz 11 at least marks 2...d6?, 3...f5?, 9...Be7? (9...Kf7). There are "losing lines" included in Fritz also, which is good. There are some inaccuracies, however.
And, of course, many may not agree that 2...d6 deserves a '?'. 🙂
As for engines themselves, they're still very unreliable in the openings. However, they're useful if guided by a strong player who knows what's important.
07 Apr 08
2 edits
Originally posted by exigentskyI didn't mean Fritz's '?' is a losing line, but that Fritz includes losing lines also. (Point being to no1marauder that not all lines in Fritz are meant to be played, so to speak.)
The "?" doesn't mean that it's a losing line. If you go by that, everything in response to 1. e4 other than 1. ...e5 and 1. ...c5 loses. This is clearly not true. The "?" simply indicates a line that doesn't suits Fritz's strengths according to the authors. Green lines may not even be that good, but Fritz may play them very well. Rybka has its own green l However, they're useful if guided by a strong player who knows what's important.
07 Apr 08
Originally posted by IkutursoWell, I don't agree with the question marks for moves 2 and 3 - the opening is called the Philidor Countergambit and is played even by masters. By move 9, the game is lost in this line; I don't think Kf7 makes much of a difference.
Fritz 11 at least marks 2...d6?, 3...f5?, 9...Be7? (9...Kf7). There are "losing lines" included in Fritz also, which is good. There are some inaccuracies, however.
And, of course, many may not agree that 2...d6 deserves a '?'. 🙂
edit: or do you mean actual games in the game database? Chessbase's larger (at least "Big" and "Mega", and the one included in newer Fritz boxes) include an amount of low-quality (beginner) games.
07 Apr 08
Originally posted by no1marauderBut it does! It's the correct continuation. White ends up with rook and a pawn or two for two minor pieces with a fun position, but not a clearly won one by any means.
By move 9, the game is lost in this line; I don't think Kf7 makes much of a difference.
07 Apr 08
Originally posted by IkutursoPlease; Black's King is exposed and he's down material. Perhaps 9 ...... Kf7 is a marginally better move but White should still win without too much trouble.
But it does! It's the correct continuation. White ends up with rook and a pawn or two for two minor pieces with a fun position, but not a clearly won one by any means.
07 Apr 08
Originally posted by no1marauderNo no, it's all theory still. If you can get your hands on James West: "The Dynamic Philidor Counter-Gambit" you should check it out. It's a bit dated (1996?) but this particular line hasn't been refuted. Or you can try a few games with it to see how it works out.
Please; Black's King is exposed and he's down material. Perhaps 9 ...... Kf7 is a marginally better move but White should still win without too much trouble.