08 Mar 09
3 edits
Originally posted by scacchipazzoI don't think it really matters much which side is to move. With Black to move in the original position, the Fruity one opines that at ply 36, the eval for White is over +5, with each side having a promoted queen. (I can't see the entire line, as I don't want to stop the analysis yet, but it looks like White gets a check in first and is able to either skewer or fork the black bishop.)
I humbly accept the soft gloved slap. I wrongly assumed black was next to move in which case i believe dislodging the black king would prove difficult. white to move probably wins along the lines you suggest.
It's starting to take h_o_u_r_s for each extra ply, so I'm not sure if I'll get to ply 37. But it definitely looks like a win for White, regardless of who's on move.
Edit - I could play out the first several moves of the best PV and then restart the analysis, but doing that always seems like cheating a bit to me.
08 Mar 09
Originally posted by Mad RookIt is a draw after Be6 instead of Be4, right? White cannot force a pawn breakthrough then.
I don't think it really matters much which side is to move. With Black to move in the original position, the Fruity one opines that at ply 36, the eval for White is over +5, with each side having a promoted queen. (I can't see the entire line, as I don't want to stop the analysis yet, but it looks like White gets a check in first and is able to skewer the b ...[text shortened]... get to ply 37. But it definitely loks like a win for White, regardless of who's on move.
08 Mar 09
1 edit
Oh wait what does Black play after just Be6 - Ke7! with again the annoying threat of f5 and f7 has to be covered. Sample line:
46. ... Be6
47. Ke7! Kc6
48. f5! Bxf5
49. Kxf7 Kd7
50. e6+ Bxe6+
51. Kxg6 Bg4
52. Kf7 +-
OK I would need to play this out on a board to be sure, probably Black has something better here?
edit: it appears this line is not improved easily (excuse me if I am missing something somewhere). 47. ... B~ goes similar to woodworm's initial line. Only thing that is not sure is that 52. Kf7 is so convincingly winning, perhaps 52. Kg7 instead.
08 Mar 09
Originally posted by heinzkatI didn't look at 46...Be6. I'd have to feed it to the silicon monster. (My analysis skills are nearly nonexistent, haha.) And at the moment the engine is still chewing on the original position with Black to move. (I might abort it soon anyway, since the outcome seems clear.)
Oh wait what does Black play after just Be6 - Ke7! with again the annoying threat of f5 and f7 has to be covered. Sample line:
46. ... Be6
47. Ke7! Kc6
48. f5! Bxf5
49. Kxf7 Kd7
50. e6+ Bxe6+
51. Kxg6 Bg4
52. Kf7 +-
OK I would need to play this out on a board to be sure, probably Black has something better here?
08 Mar 09
2 edits
Originally posted by heinzkatI have my Tutti Frutti engine working on it, but it's too soon for the verdict. It took about an hour to get to the first position of ply 34 (starting after 46...Be6), and the engine's been cranking on that one position for over two hours. Currently it's eval is +2. If it ever finishes that one position, the eval might increase, but I'll just have to wait. The line that it currently likes the best is:
Are you sure? It appears 46. ... Be6 47. Ke7 still wins for White, albeit via a somewhat more bumpy road.
47.Kd6e7 Be6c4 48.f4f5 g6xf5 49.e5e6 f7xe6 50.Bf6e5 f5f4 51.Be5xf4 Bc4d3 52.Ke7xe6 Kb7c6 53.Ke6f7 Bd3c4+ 54.Kf7g6
There's more, but that's all I can see on my screen without aborting the analysis. Here's the position after the above line:
BLACK TO MOVE
I'm no good at analysis, but it seems to me that White should be able to win this. I think Black can't allow White to take the h-pawn, so 54...Be2 is forced. Then something along the line of 55.Kf6, and I think White should be able to force Black to give up the bishop for the g-pawn. Of course, the white king has to stay close to the g-pawn, and if the white king steps on any light squares, he'll be subject to a bishop check, but I'm guessing that white can handle all of that.
09 Mar 09
Originally posted by scacchipazzoI'll play you a game from that position with white. I'm sure I can force a win.
This position is most definitely a draw like I stated in an earlier posting. Unless it is white's turn to move. otherwise white cannot take the h pawn since black can defend it with the bishop
09 Mar 09
Originally posted by RECUVICunbelievable. I feel so lucky to have the honour to read a high level GM analysis posted in our mortal forums.
This game is a win for white as follows,--Ke7-Bd5/f5-gxf5/e6-fxe6/Be5-f4/Bxf4-Be4/Kxe6-kc6/Kf7-Bd5+/Kg6-Bf3/Kh7-Be4+/Kh6-Kd7/Kxh5-Ke8/Be5-Kf7/Kh6 as the black King cannot enter g7 or h8 the white King and g and h pawns can force the surrender of the black Bishop in exchange for one of whites two remaining pawns,and force the promotion of the remaining pawn----😉
I mean, who cares if a GM can't even post a single line in correct notation for months, right? Thank you GM RECUVIC, thank you SO MUCH.
09 Mar 09
Originally posted by Mad RookI got my CPU freed up and was able to plug the position after 54.Kf7g6 into Fruit. I'm not sure how easy it would be for a mere mortal to find the win for White, but it wasn't too hard for Fruit: (all three lines at 22 ply show evals of over +10, clearly winning for White. In the ...Bc4e2 line, my off-the-cuff suggestion of White's response of Kf6 was a bad idea. Winning responses for White are Kg6h6 or Kg6g7.)
I have my Tutti Frutti engine working on it, but it's too soon for the verdict. It took about an hour to get to the first position of ply 34 (starting after 46...Be6), and the engine's been cranking on that one position for over two hours. Currently it's eval is +2. If it ever finishes that one position, the eval might increase, but I'll just have to wait. The ...[text shortened]... , he'll be subject to a bishop check, but I'm guessing that white can handle all of that.
21 01:28 21.605.731 239.104 +6.90 1. ... Bc4e2 2.Kg6g7 Kc6d5 3.g5g6 Kd5e6 4.Kg7f8 Ke6f5 5.g6g7 Kf5xf4 6.g7g8Q Be2f3 7.Kf8e7 Bf3g4 8.Qg8d5 Kf4g3 9.Qd5g5 Kg3g2 10.Qg5e3 Bg4f3 11.Ke7d6 Kg2g3 12.Kd6c5 Kg3g4 13.Qe3g5+ Kg4h3
21 01:28 20.982.671 239.104 +2.81 1. ... Kc6d7 2.Kg6xh5 Kd7e6 3.g5g6 Ke6f5 4.Bf4d2 Bc4d5 5.Kh5h6 Kf5g4 6.Bd2g5 Kg4h3 7.g6g7 Bd5g8 8.Kh6g6 Kh3g4 9.h4h5 Bg8c4 10.h5h6 Bc4d3+ 11.Kg6f6 Bd3h7 12.Bg5e3 Bh7g8 13.Kf6g6
21 01:28 20.811.940 239.104 +2.81 1. ... Kc6d5 2.Kg6xh5 Kd5e4 3.Bf4d2 Ke4f5 4.g5g6 Bc4d5 5.Kh5h6 Kf5g4 6.Bd2g5 Kg4h3 7.g6g7 Bd5g8 8.Kh6g6 Kh3g4 9.h4h5 Bg8c4 10.h5h6 Bc4d3+ 11.Kg6f6 Bd3h7 12.Bg5e3 Bh7g8 13.Kf6g6
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22 02:50 31.881.613 403.108 +11.01 1. ... Kc6d7 2.Kg6xh5 Kd7e6 3.g5g6 Ke6f5 4.Bf4d2 Bc4d5 5.Kh5h6 Kf5e5 6.g6g7 Bd5g8 7.Kh6g6 Bg8d5 8.Bd2g5 Ke5d4 9.Kg6h7 Bd5e4+ 10.Kh7h8 Be4d5 11.g7g8Q Kd4c5 12.Bg5f4 Kc5d4 13.h4h5 Kd4c4
22 02:50 28.561.262 403.108 +11.01 1. ... Kc6d5 2.Kg6xh5 Kd5e4 3.Bf4d2 Ke4f5 4.g5g6 Bc4d5 5.Kh5h6 Kf5g4 6.Bd2g5 Bd5c4 7.g6g7 Bc4g8 8.Kh6g6 Bg8e6 9.Kg6h7 Be6f5+ 10.Kh7h8 Bf5e6 11.g7g8Q Kg4f5 12.Qg8g7 Kf5g4 13.Qg7e7 Be6f5 14.Qe7e2+ Kg4g3
22 02:50 68.686.968 403.108 +10.86 1. ... Bc4e2 2.Kg6h6 Kc6d5 3.g5g6 Kd5e4 4.Bf4g5 Be2c4 5.Kh6h7 Bc4e2 6.g6g7 Be2g4 7.g7g8Q Ke4d4 8.Kh7g6 Kd4e4 9.Qg8f7 Ke4d4 10.Kg6g7 Kd4c3 11.Qf7d5 Kc3b4 12.Bg5d2+ Kb4a3 13.Kg7f6 Ka3a4 14.Qd5c4+ Ka4a3
09 Mar 09
Originally posted by Mad RookI think I just didn't let the engine run long enough. Although Kh6 is the best move, it appears that any king move except Kf5 is winning.
In the ...Bc4e2 line, my off-the-cuff suggestion of White's response of Kf6 was a bad idea. Winning responses for White are Kg6h6 or Kg6g7.