On ...h7 it's out of play. The point is that you'd rather have your Knight on e8 such that after ...d5, it goes to d6, and is about as well placed as it can get. For instance, here is the best line in my opinion (after a lot of work by me):
19...Rb8+ 20. Ka1 Ne8 21. Rb1 Rc8! 22. Rb4 d5! 23. exd5 Nd6 with great play. Of course Black doesn't trade rooks, and he loses a tempo moving the rook twice, but if you want to play ...Ne8-d6, you have to do it this way since you want your rook on c8 first. Note that 24. c5 is met nicely by 24...Nb5, exploiting the nasty pin, and assuring Black a great game!
19...Rb8+
Originally posted by !~TONY~!I voted for rb8+ too, but I don't see what's so great about being able to play Nd6 that it's worth giving up more material, even when black is down with no apparent compensation (yet).
On ...h7 it's out of play. The point is that you'd rather have your Knight on e8 such that after ...d5, it goes to d6, and is about as well placed as it can get. For instance, here is the best line in my opinion (after a lot of work by me):
19...Rb8+ 20. Ka1 Ne8 21. Rb1 Rc8! 22. Rb4 d5! 23. exd5 Nd6 with great play. Of course Black doesn't trade rooks, ...[text shortened]... y by 24...Nb5, exploiting the nasty pin, and assuring Black a great game!
[b]19...Rb8+[/b]
I think the logical square for the black knight would be c5, without compromising more material and change in this solid pawn structure, and the only way to get there would be playing 2...Nh7 (after 1...Rb8+).
Originally posted by TyrannosauruschexI fully concur with this, he is bound to have to waste tempo to move his queen, on e8 the knight is just out of the game.
Here is a bit of an idea.
Nh7, followed by Rb8+ followed by Nf8 and then Ne6 - how do you like them apples?
Originally posted by TyrannosauruschexMy idea is: first 19. ... Nh7, then 20. ... Rc8 (why "help" White playing Ka1?), 21. ... Nf8, 22. ... Ne6. I doubt if it is any good, but it looks most promising of what is available.
Here is a bit of an idea.
Nh7, followed by Rb8+ followed by Nf8 and then Ne6 - how do you like them apples?
Originally posted by heinzkatI think the king is quite bad at a1 because of the dragon bishop, I think Rb8+ is a better move than Rc8
My idea is: first 19. ... Nh7, then 20. ... Rc8 (why "help" White playing Ka1?), 21. ... Nf8, 22. ... Ne6. I doubt if it is any good, but it looks most promising of what is available.
This is a very good position to analyse, and throws up some clear differences in style.
We have some players who can't see much/any compensation for the material investment, and others (I'm in this group!) who like to try to prove that active pieces and weaknesses to aim at provide ample counterplay.
It's certainly a tricky decision we have here. To check or not to check; to retreat to h7 (then to f8 and e6) or retreat to e8 (and force a new life on d6 after ...d5 investing more material) ?!
I have to say that I'm with Tony on this one at the moment. ...Rb8+, followed by droppping the knight back to e8. Then we play ...d5 and ...Nd6. I can't find a sensible way for white to use his exrta material?
No-one has mentioned yet that white could play Kc1 in response to the check?! The idea is to go to d2, and then play Rb1 without trapping his king in the corner. However, i believe we can play the ...Ne8,..d5 , ...Nd6 plan against both king moves.
I like our position!
I think Rb8+ is clearly best.
However, what do we play if
Rb8+ Kc1 Ne8 Kd2
If white aims to play Rb1 driving our rook to c8, we dont want to do it immediately do we? i mean, we want him to make a move which forces us to play Rc8, even though we want it there we want him to have to play Rb1.
so what after Kc1, or is Rc8 the only move?
Originally posted by mazattackHi Mazattack,
I think Rb8+ is clearly best.
However, what do we play if
Rb8+ Kc1 Ne8 Kd2
If white aims to play Rb1 driving our rook to c8, we dont want to do it immediately do we? i mean, we want him to make a move which forces us to play Rc8, even though we want it there we want him to have to play Rb1.
so what after Kc1, or is Rc8 the only move?
It's a good question. I think though that ...Rc8 is probably forced, but a good move anyway! When the king goes to d2, the R on d1 isn't doing anything useful, so it makes little difference.
The main point is to keep the threat of ...d5 going; we have to force exd5 and not allow cxd5. If white goes into this line, his huddle of pieces in the centre looks quite impotent.
A simliar idea is seen after 19...Rb8+ 20.Kc1 Ne8 21.Rd3 Rc8! 22.Kd2 Be6!
I haven't found an acceptable line of play for white yet. Has anyone else?
I understand the reasoning behind Rc8, and why we want to play d5. But i didnt know if we could play a strong waiting move to force Rb1.
Though i see that it wouldn't be possible.
From your line, i think white would after Be6 like to move the queen from the diagonal and c-file. making Qb4! the move. This stops the trapped rook being attacked by Bxc4, it relevaes the pins of the queen and starts to unstick the centre.
though i must say i dont much like Rd3 in the first place. clearly it is trying to put the rook in more of an active place when Kd2 follows.. rather than Kd2 blocking the power of the rook on the file but.. don't white's peices look far too locked and just.. lumped together too close so the power of the peices is all gone. i know it's our aim.. but it seems Rd3 just amplifies it for us and i doubt pawn riot will play ball. unless you see it untangling a bit?
So anyway... Be6 Qb4 Bxc4 Rc3 d5
You say you dont see an acceptable line for white.. I'm sure you've seen the above line so what is wrong about it? not that im doubting, just dont see it really?
Though as i said, i dont think Rd3 is the move. Maybe Kd2 but ill put some thought into it.