24 Apr 08
Originally posted by ZweiteI've said many times that I'm *not* saying those openings aren't playable.
Jonathan, are you saying that no openings are playable?! You disagree with the KG, Scotch, Scandinavian... 🙂
You make some good points but the issue is completely ambiguous.
btw: I popped back to ammend a post I made earlier where I'd linked to the wrong chessgames.com page.
24 Apr 08
1 edit
This has all gone strangely off-topic.
By the way, the King's Gambit is clearly unsound against top-level opposition:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1018654
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1274515
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1197845
24 Apr 08
Originally posted by SquelchbelchI think the question posed by the thread was adequately answered early on by wormwood's post. So all of the threads after that are just icing on the cake. 😵
This has all gone strangely off-topic.
By the way, the King's Gambit is clearly unsound against top-level opposition:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1018654
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1274515
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1197845
24 Apr 08
Originally posted by Mad RookI'm not naive enough to expect some difinitive answer like 42😉
I think the question posed by the thread was adequately answered early on by wormwood's post. So all of the threads after that are just icing on the cake. 😵
I was just curious.
I really was expecting engine v engine to come up with the Ruy Lopez for some reason.
25 Apr 08
2 edits
Originally posted by SquelchbelchThe "problem" is that classic openings (like Ruy) were made by humans, not engine. If players would suddenly forgot all theory and start to play opening moves recommended by engine then it will be another chess.
I'm not naive enough to expect some difinitive answer like 42😉
I was just curious.
I really was expecting engine v engine to come up with the Ruy Lopez for some reason.
25 Apr 08
Originally posted by KorchIt's not who made it that matters, it's the logic. The Ruy Lopez is the most difficult to equalize against and the engine recommendations are weaker. If they were stronger, theory would have favored them by now. Engines are number crunchers and not good this early in the game where there really aren't any significant tactics to use for evaluation.
The "problem" is that classic openings (like Ruy) were made by humans, not engine. If players would suddenly forgot all theory and start to play opening moves recommended by engine then it will be another chess.
25 Apr 08
Originally posted by exigentskyHuman logic and "logic" of engine may differ.
It's not who made it that matters, it's the logic. The Ruy Lopez is the most difficult to equalize against and the engine recommendations are weaker. If they were stronger, theory would have favored them by now. Engines are number crunchers and not good this early in the game where there really aren't any significant tactics to use for evaluation.
Also target of many openings (like Kings Indian, Benoni, Gruenfeld etc.) is to get position with good counter play, instead of equality.
25 Apr 08
Originally posted by KorchYes, I understand that. My point is that opening theory in some positions is developed enough that we generally know the most testing move. If engines differ from this, it is because they play weaker not because they have a different and equally valid logic. For example, the Ruy Lopez is objectively more testing than Bc4 or Nc3.
Human logic and "logic" of engine may differ.
Also target of many openings (like Kings Indian, Benoni, Gruenfeld etc.) is to get position with good counter play, instead of equality.
25 Apr 08
Originally posted by SquelchbelchIf you say so. 🙄 Everyone is allowed their opinion.
This has all gone strangely off-topic.
By the way, the King's Gambit is clearly unsound against top-level opposition:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1018654
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1274515
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1197845
25 Apr 08
Originally posted by exigentskyYes, playing against the Piano is one of the most simple things in chess.
Yes, I understand that. My point is that opening theory in some positions is developed enough that we generally know the most testing move. If engines differ from this, it is because they play weaker not because they have a different and equally valid logic. For example, the Ruy Lopez is objectively more testing than Bc4 or Nc3.
25 Apr 08
Originally posted by exigentskySo if you play Ruy and I don`t it means that I play weaker 😀
Yes, I understand that. My point is that opening theory in some positions is developed enough that we generally know the most testing move. If engines differ from this, it is because they play weaker not because they have a different and equally valid logic. For example, the Ruy Lopez is objectively more testing than Bc4 or Nc3.
25 Apr 08
Originally posted by KorchSome players don't even aim for objective advantage with White but only a game that they know how to play and are more familiar with. The advantage in knowledge may often be much greater than any tiny advantage obtained in main line theory. You would probably beat me regardless of opening choice because you understand the game better as a whole. However, that doesn't change the Ruy's status as the best way to maintain White's advantage.
So if you play Ruy and I don`t it means that I play weaker 😀
25 Apr 08
4 edits
Originally posted by exigentskyAnd what will base your claim "Ruy is the best way to maintain White's advantage." ? For example how are you gonna get advantage against Berlin defence? Recent games shows that even in Top GM level white has problems to get advantage and now white tend to avoid Berlin defence, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 playing 4.d3.
Some players don't even aim for objective advantage with White but only a game that they know how to play and are more familiar with. The advantage in knowledge may often be much greater than any tiny advantage obtained in main line theory. You would probably beat me regardless of opening choice because you understand the game better as a whole. However, that doesn't change the Ruy's status as the best way to maintain White's advantage.