Originally posted by exigentskyCant you understand that Ruy Lopez is impossible if black does not want to play it? Why do you think so many GMs agrees to play it?
Oh, come on Korch. It may not be to your taste, but I'm sure you realize that the Ruy is considered best. Just examining the repertoires of the top 50 should give you a hint. :p
Lets for example check out openings of FIDE Gran Prix so far:
Round 1
Radjabov - Adams: Ruy Lopez, Exchange (black equalised without problems) Draw
Carlsen - Wang Yue: Ruy Lopez, after 3...Nf6 white avoided Berlin with 4.d3 - black equalised without problems. Draw
Cheparinov - Grishcuk: French. Black won.
Gashimov - Bacrot: Ruy Lopez, Anti Marshall. White got minimal plus. Draw.
Inarkiev - Kamsky: Ruy Lopez, Breyer. White got minimal plus but Kamsky overplayed his opponent. Black won.
Mamedyarov - Svidler: King Indian defence. Draw
Karjakin - Navarra: Ruy Lopez, Anti Marshall. Black equalised. Draw.
Round 2
Wang Yue- Gashimov: Modern Benoni. Draw.
Adams - Cheparinov: Sicilian. White won
Bacrot - Radjabov: Sicilian. Black won.
Grishcuk - Karjakin: Slav. Draw
Inarkiev - Mamedyarov: Pirc. White won.
Kamsky- Navarra:Slav. Draw.
Svidler - Carlsen: Ruy Lopez, Open. Black equalised. Draw.
Round 3
Radjabov - Wang Yue: Petroff. Draw.
Carlsen - Inarkiev: Something like Kings Indian defence. White won.
Cheparinov - Bacrot: Nimzo-Indian. Black won.
Gashimov - Svidler:Sicilian. White won.
Karjakin - Adams: Ruy Lopez. White got advantage and won.
Mamedjarov - Kamsky:Gruenfeld. Draw.
Navarra - Grischuk:Slav. Black won.
Round 4
Wang Yue - Cheparinov: Modern-Benoni. White won.
Adams - Navarra: French. White won.
Bacrot - Karjakin: Slav. Draw.
Inarkiev - Gashimov: Modern-Benoni. Draw.
Kamsky - Grischuk: Slav.Draw.
Mamedyarov - Carlsen: Queens-Indian. White won.
Svidler - Radjabov: Ruy Lopez,Schliemann. White got small plus. Draw.
Round 5
Carlsen - Kamsky: Caro-Can. Draw.
Cheparinov - Svidler: Slav.Draw.
Gashimov - Mamedyarov: French.Draw.
Grischuk - Adams: English. Draw.
Karjakin - Wang Yue: Ruy Lopez, Berlin defence. Black equalized and later managed to overplay opponent in rook endgame.
Navarra - Bacrot: Slav.Draw.
Radjabov - Inarkiev: Scotch. Draw.
So far results in Ruy Lopez:
There were played 9 games from 35 which is 25,7%
Results are +2 - 1 = 6 in Black favour (overall results are +8 -6 =15 in White favour)
In 1 game white achieved real advantage and won.
In 2 games white got small plus which was not enough for more than draw.
In 1 game white got small plus but black overplayed opponent and won.
In 4 games black did equalise without problems and reached draw.
In 1 game black did equalise, overplayed opponent and won.
Originally posted by KorchIf Black plays Nc6, there is no way to avoid it. The others are just various defenses.
Cant you understand that Ruy Lopez is impossible if black does not want to play it? Why do you think so many GMs agrees to play it?
Even though, White has found it difficult to get a significant edge, the fact that it's all Ruys suggests that the White players have the most confidence in it. If Nc3 was played instead, you can probably expect the results to be worse. The Ruy is the only opening that makes Black's life awkward and keeps tension for a long time - imo.
Personally, I think that there is no way to completely equalize in the Ruy (although the Marshall comes close). It's just that White has to be very precise to keep the edge and even then, it's not a winning edge. Your opponent has to help. I can reveal deep theory to support this, but I have satisfied myself and see no obligation to satisfy the forum. You don't have to play the Ruy.
BTW: White has an edge in the Berlin. Kasparov tended to have better positions against Kramnik, it's just that the edge is too small for more than a draw - as with all decent defenses. The same kind of thing often happens in the QID with Ba6 and 9. Nbd2. White gets a slight edge but Black has no trouble drawing.
Originally posted by exigentskyOf what possible use to White is an opening where "White gets a slight edge but Black has no trouble drawing"?
If Black plays Nc6, there is no way to avoid it. The others are just various defenses.
Even though, White has found it difficult to get a significant edge, the fact that it's all Ruys suggests that the White players have the most confidence in it. If Nc3 was played instead, you can probably expect the results to be worse. The Ruy is the only opening t ...[text shortened]... n the QID with Ba6 and 9. Nbd2. White gets a slight edge but Black has no trouble drawing.
A lot of players play the Ruy because it saves time in the opening to make a lot of book moves known by both players. But obviously those lines have been so analyzed (out to 25 moves or more) that it is virtually impossible for White to gain any type of an edge. White's better off, IMO, to go into the lesser charted waters of the Scotch.
Originally posted by exigentskyThe Scotch is a good alternative to 3. Bb5. I don't agree that: "The others are just defenses.". Having said that I find 3. Bb5 works quite well enough against the majority of my opponents - it's the move I usually play. No opening is going to win the game for you assuming a non-naive opponent, but equally the difficulty top level players have in making small advantages count in games against one another has little to do with the problems you face against average opponents on this site.
If Black plays Nc6, there is no way to avoid it. The others are just various defenses.
Even though, White has found it difficult to get a significant edge, the fact that it's all Ruys suggests that the White players have the most confidence in it. If Nc3 was played instead, you can probably expect the results to be worse. The Ruy is the only opening t ...[text shortened]... n the QID with Ba6 and 9. Nbd2. White gets a slight edge but Black has no trouble drawing.
Originally posted by no1marauderThis is with best play (which is more hypothetical and not really known). Of course, there is a lot of work to get there and it's not at all easy. Moreover, I don't think he's necessarily better off with something less analyzed. The Ruy, even after 20 moves is incredibly complex. However, variety is the spice of life - as they say. 🙂
Of what possible use to White is an opening where "White gets a slight edge but Black has no trouble drawing"?
A lot of players play the Ruy because it saves time in the opening to make a lot of book moves known by both players. But obviously those lines have been so analyzed (out to 25 moves or more) that it is virtually impossible for Whit ...[text shortened]... type of an edge. White's better off, IMO, to go into the lesser charted waters of the Scotch.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtI don't mean anything derogatory by "other defenses." I'm just saying that anything after Nc6 and Bb5 is in the realm of the Ruy Lopez.
The Scotch is a good alternative to 3. Bb5. I don't agree that: "The others are just defenses.". Having said that I find 3. Bb5 works quite well enough against the majority of my opponents - it's the move I usually play. No opening is going to win the game for you assuming a non-naive opponent, but equally the difficulty top level players have in maki ...[text shortened]... another has little to do with the problems you face against average opponents on this site.