02 Mar 08
2 edits
Originally posted by MahoutIgnoring cheating?
Of course. The majority of players here want the same as you do. I just ignore cheating and the idea of cheating. I think it's more of a problem for higher rated players.
Reminds me of the people at church who 'ignored' what the minister was doing to the children.
Or for that matter, the people who 'ignore' what George W Bush is doing to the country.
No, my friend, you can not ignore these things.
And before I get all the hate mail for standing up for what I believe in, I have to ask the question: When are people going to take a stand? Whether it's cheating here, lying, or deceiving people for a person's own gain, it's all the same.
We really need to address the facts and open our eyes.
02 Mar 08
Originally posted by droflaceI disagree. Cheating is much more glaring when a 1400 or 1500 rated player plays the first 10 moves like their rating then uses an engine to play the next 30 or so moves flawlessly.
It's definately more obvious in higher rated players, but I'm sure you will get the odd player who used to beat all of their friends and thinks they are really good at chess who gets frustrated with losing all of the time and will use an engine to "check" a few moves a game because they have conviced themselves that everyone else is so good that they must all be cheating...
In OTB this almost never happens. Sort of like the odds of being struck by lightning. But it happens here much more often.
02 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by caissad4Obviously a player playing like you described would be very obvious to detect, but a 1500 player who plays 15 moves on their own, then uses an engine through 2 or 3 moves to gain an advantage and then uses their own skill to finish off the game would be much more difficult to detect.
I disagree. Cheating is much more glaring when a 1400 or 1500 rated player plays the first 10 moves like their rating then uses an engine to play the next 30 or so moves flawlessly.
In OTB this almost never happens. Sort of like the odds of being struck by lightning. But it happens here much more often.
They might not win every time using that technique but I figure they would win more than they lost against players of an equal ability
02 Mar 08
Originally posted by droflaceA 1500 can't win a game by using an engine for two or three moves and those two or three moves wouldn't make any difference in the outcome of the game unless they ended with the win of a queen or checkmate.
Obviously a player playing like you described would be very obvious to detect, but a 1500 player who plays 15 moves on their own, then uses an engine through 2 or 3 moves to gain an advantage and then uses their own skill to finish off the game would be much more difficult to detect.
They might not win every time using that technique but I figure they would win more than they lost against players of an equal ability
02 Mar 08
Originally posted by ArrakisAnd how do you do this exactly?
When are people going to take a stand?
Cancel a subscription?
It wouldn't surprise me if less than 5% of users actually visit the chess forum & maybe 85% of people on this site are below 1500, how many people do you think are actually directly affected by the engine use problem?
To the vast majority this is simply an issue that has no relevance.
If people are that bothered they should try to improve their online blitz play or concentrate on OTB.
02 Mar 08
Originally posted by SquelchbelchI find your remarks appalling and ignorant. You obviously didn't put much thought into what you said.
And how do you do this exactly?
Cancel a subscription?
It wouldn't surprise me if less than 5% of users actually visit the chess forum & maybe 85% of people on this site are below 1500, how many people do you think are actually directly affected by the engine use problem?
To the vast majority this is simply an issue that has no relevance.
If people are that bothered they should try to improve their online blitz play or concentrate on OTB.
For instance your suggestion (not mine) "Cancel a subscription?".
Along with your follow-up of: "To the vast majority this is simply an issue that has no relevance."
So now you are a statistical expert over all the members at RHP!? You know and understand, and even explain to everyone that they don't have a problem with anyone cheating. I'll tell you what I think... I think that you, and people like you, contribute to the problems here at RHP. But that's just *my* opinion, and I wouldn't even have mentioned it to you except that somebody needs to give you a wake-up call!
02 Mar 08
Originally posted by ArrakisThank you for your friendly & constructive reply.
I find your remarks appalling and ignorant. You obviously didn't put much thought into what you said.
For instance your suggestion (not mine) "Cancel a subscription?".
Along with your follow-up of: "To the vast majority this is simply an issue that has no relevance."
So now you are a statistical expert over all the members at RHP!? You know and under ...[text shortened]... 't even have mentioned it to you except that somebody needs to give you a wake-up call!
🙂
02 Mar 08
Originally posted by tomtom232Surely you could safely expect a 1500 to convert a win if they were a piece up and playing another 1500. Maybe a couple of moves from an engine wouldn't help them too much, but it certainly wouldn't hurt them
A 1500 can't win a game by using an engine for two or three moves and those two or three moves wouldn't make any difference in the outcome of the game unless they ended with the win of a queen or checkmate.
02 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by ArrakisTwisting my words.
...and even explain to everyone that they don't have a problem with anyone cheating...
I said that to the vast majority of members the engine use issue is of little concern.
I reckon the average rating here is proabably around 1300. So how many in the massive 1200-1400 section do you think are using Fritz to enhance their performance?
How many of these guys (who presumably mostly play people of similar ratings) are thinking "wow, that 1300 just played a reasonable game & beat me - he must be getting help!"?
When you get to the dizzying heights of the top 5 percentile, then of course, engine use is much more common & a far greater concern.
In fact I'd probably be dis-inclined to play here at all if I were 1900+ with the current sitaution regarding game moderation or lack thereof.
***********
They say that a GM is the worst person to explain the basic concepts of chess to a beginner because of a total lack of empathy.
Perhaps a 1900+ is equally useless at understanding what goes on in the minds of us mere mortals?
02 Mar 08
Originally posted by ArrakisPerhaps you should suggest how we should "make a stand" instead of getting stroppy with those who disagree with you. So how are we to "make a stand"? I don't see that there is a lot we can do in real terms. It is no good just ranting in the forums, that will be noticed by only a tiny percentage of the users of this site and likely not be noticed at all by those that matter, the proprietors. I think your only recourse is actually to take your business elsewhere. Do that and persuade enough other to follow you and the site admins would have to take notice. Unfortunately staying here and ranting at others will not achieve the aim.
I find your remarks appalling and ignorant. You obviously didn't put much thought into what you said.
For instance your suggestion (not mine) "Cancel a subscription?".
Along with your follow-up of: "To the vast majority this is simply an issue that has no relevance."
So now you are a statistical expert over all the members at RHP!? You know and under ...[text shortened]... 't even have mentioned it to you except that somebody needs to give you a wake-up call!
02 Mar 08
Originally posted by KeplerIndeed!
Perhaps you should suggest how we should "make a stand" instead of getting stroppy with those who disagree with you. So how are we to "make a stand"? I don't see that there is a lot we can do in real terms. It is no good just ranting in the forums, that will be noticed by only a tiny percentage of the users of this site and likely not be noticed at all by tho ...[text shortened]... to take notice. Unfortunately staying here and ranting at others will not achieve the aim.
How exactly do we rise up & make this stand for decency?
I think Arrakis' logical approach to this should be either:
1) Cancel his subscription & not play here anymore & urge others to do likewise
2) Cancel his subscription but continue to play on & whine like a newborn in the open forums
3) Cancel his subscription, urge others to do likewise & bombard the site admins with PM's bemoaning the fact that many of his opponents are engines & urge others to do likewise
4) Continue to subscribe & whine in the open forums
Hmm... Now where would I put my money?
02 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by SquelchbelchI'd favour a fifth option if it were me. Continue to subscribe but continually bombard the admins with complaints. I would also suggest that others do this and also say that if my complaints are not dealt with in a certain time frame that I will not renew my subscription. As far as i can see that is the only leverage we have.
Indeed!
How exactly do we rise up & make this stand for decency?
I think Arrakis' logical approach to this should be either:
1) Cancel his subscription & not play here anymore & urge others to do likewise
2) Cancel his subscription but continue to play on & whine like a newborn in the open forums
3) Cancel his subscription, urge others to 4) Continue to subscribe & whine in the open forums
Hmm... Now where would I put my money?
02 Mar 08
2 edits
Originally posted by Kepleri think the site admins need to split rhp ...
I'd favour a fifth option if it were me. Continue to subscribe but continually bombard the admins with complaints. I would also suggest that others do this and also say that if my complaints are not dealt with in a certain time frame that I will not renew my subscription. As far as i can see that is the only leverage we have.
1: rhp allowed and open to all users including computer chess players,
and
2: rhp strictly for humans.
maintenance of 1/ will be easy ...
maintenance of 2/ will be much more difficult and require much patience from us.
it requires simply a -
(H) tag on players who claim to be totally human and a
(C) tag from players claiming to be totally computer
(W) tag for people who say whatever!
02 Mar 08
There's no ideal cure to cheating at sites such as RHP and it will always be an issue to some extent or other.
Does anyone have experience of systems used by some other online games (Counter Strike?! sorry, not sure) where players can vote against other players? And hence players can get voted out? I've heard that one disadvantage is that sometimes genuinely good players get booted but maybe in a chess site it may work ok. It's a bit like Ebay's reputation system where people need to build up trust from the rest of the community.
I'm not saying this would work in practice. I've no first hand experience of it elsewhere. I'm just curious if there's anything that maybe could help minimise the number of cheats while removing some of the burden from game moderators.
02 Mar 08
Originally posted by flexmoreThe trouble is proving that someone is what they say they are. At present we all say we are 100% human but how is that to be proved or disproved? I doubt that there is an absolutely accurate test available.
i think the site admins need to split rhp ...
1: rhp allowed and open to all users including computer chess players,
and
2: rhp strictly for humans.
maintenance of 1/ will be easy ...
maintenance of 2/ will be much more difficult and require much patience from us.
it requires simply a -
(H) tag on players who claim to be totally human and a
(C) tag from players claiming to be totally computer
(W) tag for people who say whatever!