Originally posted by Regicidal19... Qxa7 is check. Hence my earlier edit. Instead of 18. Ba7 what about 18. Ne4 heading to e6 that way? if black takes on d5 we give check, win the rook and then play exd5. Our queen is hitting a4 so black has to give up the a pawn for what will be our d pawn.
Nope.
19.Nc7 Qxa7 20. Ne6ch!! is better.
Anyway, better look at it a little more
Originally posted by RegicidalYes, but his queen is still on c8 in this line so we have 21. Nxc8. I'll look at your Qxd5 idea tomorrow.
No, if Na7 then ...Rxd1.
However, ...Qxd5 in reply to Rxd5 is probably the way.
I vote that we don't vote until we know what is going to happen after 14. d5 because 14. Bc2 is worth avoiding.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtI'll second that. I say we prolong voting.
Yes, but his queen is still on c8 in this line so we have 21. Nxc8. I'll look at your Qxd5 idea tomorrow.
I vote that we don't vote until we know what is going to happen after 14. d5 because 14. Bc2 is worth avoiding.
Originally posted by ark13I agree, I just saw this position and discussionn this morning and it seems there are a lot of uncertainties after 14. d5. This is the intended move after 13. Rc1 but it is not sure now if it's sound. We really need to know the options black has.
I'll second that. I say we prolong voting.
--SEVES
Originally posted by Regicidalafter 14. ...Bb7 we have the subtle move 15. Nxa4!?. I'll have to take a closer look at it though.
Ha, you overlooked 14.d5 Bb7! and if dxe6 Qxd1, exf7ch Kf8, Rfxd1 axb3 and you may wind up a piece down for two pawns.
The other line also looks good for us.
I vote for 14. d5!.
Since the argument about variations goes over 2 pages I'll type them all in here in one place. I think I've got everyone's ideas here.
The assessments are +/- we have a clear advantage, +/= if we have a slight edge, and = if it's an equal position. If the symbols are the other way round then CHESS has the advantage.
14. d5
A) 14. ... bxc3
B) 14. ... exd5
C) 14. ... Bb7
A) 14. ... bxc3 15. dxc6
A1) 15. ... Qxc6 16. Qxb3 +/-
A2) 15. ... Qxd1 16. Rfxd1 b4 17. Nb3 +/=
B) 14. ... exd5 15) Bxd5
B1) 15. ... b4 !? 16) Bxc6 Qxc6 17) Nd5 +/= as the rook on c1 saves the day.
B2) 15. ... Nxd5 16) exd5 Bxd5 17) Nxd5 Qxd5 18) Qxd5 Rxd5 19) Rxc7 +/= as black has trouble castling
We have to be careful of Zwischenzug moves in these lines. It matters whether black takes with the bishop or the knight first.
C) 14. ... Bb7
C1) 15. dxe6
C1a) 15. ... fxe6 16. Qxd7 Rxd7 17. Bxe6 +/-
C1b) 15. ... Qxd1 16. exf6+ Kf8 17. Bxd1 +/-
C1c) 15. ... Qc1 16. exf7+ Kf8 17. Bd5 c6 18. Nxb5
C1ci) 18. ... Qb1 19. Nd4 cxd5 20. Ne6+ Kxf7 21. Nxd8+ Rxd8 22.Qxa4 +/-
C1cii) 18. ... Nxd5 19. exd5 Rxd5 with a final branch
C1ciia) 20. Na7 Rxd1 21. Nxc8 Rxf1+ 22.Kxf1 Bxc8 23. Rxc6 Ba6+ 24. Kf2 =/+ as we are a piece for 2 pawns down.
C1ciib) 19. Qxd5 !? cxd5 20. Rxc8+ Bxc8 +/- as black still has to get the king's rook out giving us time to deal with the d-pawn.
C2) 15. Nxa4 ! bxa4 16. Bxa4 c6 17. dxc6 Qxd1 18. cxb7+ 19. Kf8 20. Rfxd1 +/-
Most of the analysis of line C stays the same after 14. ... Ba8 but Schakuhr's line (C2) is less advantageous as we can't just win back the material. Variation B needs more investigation. We should also look for other black 14th moves like 14. .. 0-0 (15. dxe6)
The conclusion so far is that 14. d5 is good.
Votes so far:
14. d5 (3)
14. Bc2 (2)
Originally posted by DeepThoughtHere are my ideas:
Since the argument about variations goes over 2 pages I'll type them all in here in one place. The assessments are +/- we are ahead -/+ CHESS is ahead. I think I've got everyone's ideas here.
14. d5
A) 14. ... bxc3
B) 14. ... exd5
C) 14. ... Bb7
A) 14. ... bxc3 15. dxc6
A1) 15. ... Qxc6 16. Qxb3 +/-
A2) 15. ... Qxd1 16. Rfxd1 b4 17. ...[text shortened]... her black 14th moves like 14. .. 0-0 (15. dxe6)
The conclusion so far is that 14. d5 is good.
14. d5
A) 14. ...axb3
B) 14. ...exd5
C) 14. ...Bb7
A) 14. ...axb3 15. dxc6
A1) 15. ...Qxc6 and now 16. Nd5! with the threat Nxc7+ gives us a won game.
A2) 15. ...Qxd1+ 16. Rfxd1 b4 17. Nb5, and now we shouldn't directly play Nxc7 on the next move, because he can play bxa2 and b3. Looks good for us though.
B) 14. ...exd5 15. Bxd5 Nxd5 16. exd5 Bxd5 17. Nxd5 Qxd5 18. Qxd5 Rxd5 19. Rxc7. This whole line looks forced to me. We have a minor endgame advantage I think. It will probably be drawn then.
You made a mistake in your C2 line Deepthought, because 18. cxb7+?? fails to 18. ...Qxa4.
C) 14. ...Bb7 15. Nxa4
C1) 15. ...bxa4? 16. Bxa4 c6 17. dxc6 Qxd1 18. Rfxd1! +/-
We now have 3 pawns for the sacrificed knight, and we have a few threats that give us a won game. black has to move Bb7 away as well as his king.
C2) 15. ...O-O 16. Nc5! +/- this is actually the point of the last move. we are a pawn up, and black is forced to give up the bishop pair.
This goes for all other variations.
Originally posted by schakuhrLine A)
Here are my ideas:
14. d5
A) 14. ...axb3
B) 14. ...exd5
C) 14. ...Bb7
A) 14. ...axb3 15. dxc6
A1) 15. ...Qxc6 and now 16. Nd5! with the threat Nxc7+ gives us a won game.
A2) 15. ...Qxd1+ 16. Rfxd1 b4 17. Nb5, and now we shouldn't directly play Nxc7 on the next move, because he can play bxa2 and b3. Looks good for us though.
B) 14. ...exd5 1 ...[text shortened]... a pawn up, and black is forced to give up the bishop pair.
This goes for all other variations.
16. Nd5 is an improvement on line A1
Line B)
In line B (14. d5 exd5 15. Bxd5) what about:
B3) 15. ... Bxd5 (Nxd5 is B2 above) 16. exd5 and black isn't forced to recapture, so
B3a) 15. ... Bxd5 16. exd5 0-0 =/+ because of the isolated pawn.
B3bi) 15. ... Bxd5 16. Nxd5 Nxd5 (16. ... 0-0 17 Rxc7) 17. Qxd5 0-0 18. Rd1 =
B3bii) 17. ... Qxd5 18. exd5 Re7 19. Bc5 0-0 20. Bxe7 Rxe7 21 Rc5 Rb8 22. Rfc1 +/-
B3bii looks ok, but there may be improvements for black lurking in there. The point I'm making is I'm not convinced that the mass exchange is totally forced.
Line C:
Yes, didn't see that, so C2 (in my post) is the same as your C1.
Can we rename your C1 C2a and your C2 C2b otherwise it's confusing? The line C1 (15. ... dxe6) is viable so we should think about it as well next move.
C2a) 15. ... bxa4 16. Bxa4 c6 17. dxc6 Qxd1 18. Rfxd1 +/-
C2b) 15. ... 0-0 16. Nc5 +/- as 16. ... Bxc5 17. Bxc5 Re8 18. dxe6 gives black some miserable options.
I agree with your analysis of line C2, but does any of it change after black goes for 14. ... Ba8 or 14. ... 0-0?
This means the line that could be a problem is B. There's plenty of scope for error in B3bii. As far as I can see there are no variations which actually leave us losing so I think we should go ahead with 14. d5.
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Just out of interest, how do you guys check through your lines. Do you use a 'chess pad' or simply (or not so simply as the case may be) run them through in your head while looking at the small board on this thread?
Will have to wait until I get home to take a proper look the last couple of posts but from where I am sitting it's d5 or Bc2, the latter of which undoes our last move. So unless there is a better move than d5 that is looking best.