04 Jan 05
Originally posted by CorsairI admit - it was seeing Fritz play the Fried Liver against Fievel that tipped me off.
Hee hee - where did you get your crystal ball from shortgoth?
So, what are you in favour or? 5. Nb5 for something risky, 5. Nc3 for something tame? 5. Qd3 perhaps? It's not often played but it protects the e pawn and the knight. 5 Bd3 has been played, pre-empts the check and protects the knight on d4 too. as well as allowing 6. Nc3 or 6. Nd2 if Fritz takes the pawn.
04 Jan 05
Originally posted by shortgoth1There seems to be a time limit after which you cannot edit any more. I've editted posts 8 or more times, but you have to do it fast.
Sorry mate, that should read 6. Bd3, intending to castle[1]. And you're right, e5 is playable, I just prefer to get another piece out and castle as soon as possible. Also, I made another error in one of the other "usual" lines. After NxN, QxN, the other night move is Ne7, not Nf6. I tried to correct them, but for some reason it wouldn't let me edit th ...[text shortened]... n example of this on RHP since every time I play the scotch on here, they always play 4... Nxd4.
04 Jan 05
Originally posted by shortgoth1This opening is freaky. I don't like it at all. Maybe if I learned it better I would, but it makes me very uncomfortable as White.
I admit - it was seeing Fritz play the Fried Liver against Fievel that tipped me off.
So, what are you in favour or? 5. Nb5 for something risky, 5. Nc3 for something tame? 5. Qd3 perhaps? It's not often played but it protects the e pawn and the knight. 5 Bd3 has been played, pre-empts the check and protects the knight on d4 too. as well as allowing 6. Nc3 or 6. Nd2 if Fritz takes the pawn.
I can see why it would be interesting once you get to know it though, as it seems highly tactical from the get go.
5. Nb5 bothers me as it breaks a number of the rules I've learned to play by. Move a piece twice in the opening; attack a non central Pawn before developing...the fork threat is kind of interesting, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere after the obvious 5...Qxe4+. I don't get the idea behind this move.
5. Nc3 seems to beg for 5...Bb4 which I don't like at all. In this line either the cPawn will get doubled and isolated or again we'll lose our eP.
5. Bd3 does not do what you claim it does. It loses us our Knight. I assume you mean 5. Be3. This gives up the center Pawn. 5...Qxe4 6. Nc3 is interesting, but I don't want to play a gambit against Fritz. Is it really worth it? 6. Nd2 locks in the dark Bishop which kind of defeats the purpose of gambitting for speedy development. That Knight also stays near the back of our camp which likewise defeats the point of the gambit. It also blocks the Queen from defending our d5 N.
04 Jan 05
1 edit
Originally posted by GrayeyesofsorrowI just saw all this analysis from earlier.
Id go with Nb5, its a sexy move. Im not really looking to get into an endgame against tablebase, one slip and we are gone. With fritzy's king in the center we stand a much better chance. Pawns be damned I say! :-)
The line i ...[text shortened]... 2 Kd8 8. O-O
For me white is in much better shape than black.
I don't understand why Black doesn't just use the Queen to protect the cP and attack the b5N and the bP with 5...Qe5 or 6...Qe5.
04 Jan 05
1 edit
Originally posted by LittleBearOne move too soon. If Black plays Bb4+ before capturing with the queen, then black would be able to capture the f4 pawn.
5. Nb5 Qxe4+ 6. Be2 Qe5? 7. f4 and black is lost
😛
5. Nb5 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 Qxe4+ 7. Be2 Qe5? 8. f4
I'd like it if fritz based his game around moving the Q to e5 though, cos I think that opens up a lot of possibilities for us. I don't see it happening.
Nb5 does look interesting, but I don't know a massive amount about it to have too much input at this point.
D
04 Jan 05
Originally posted by Ragnorak
One move too soon. If Black plays Bb4+ before capturing with the queen, then black would be able to capture the f4 pawn.
5. Nb5 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 Qxe4+ 7. Be2 Qe5? 8. f4
I'd like it if fritz based his game around moving the Q to e5 though, cos I think that opens up a lot of possibilities for us. I don't see it happening.
Nb5 does look interesting, but I don't know a massive amount about it to have too much input at this point.
D
I agree...
but in 5. Nb5 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 Qxe4+ 7. Be2 Qe5? 8. f4
8. f4 of course is bad. I think 8. 0-0 is the move.
Anyway, 7. ... Qe5 is not a common continuation for black.
The main line is 7. ... Kd8.
The alternatives
7. ... Qxg2 and
7. ... Bx d2+
seems to be weak too.
At least, that what theory says 🙂
04 Jan 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoung5. Nb5 is a gambit who's only real purpose is to convince black to move his king and leave it stuck in the middle. You're right, it does break conventional opening rules, but then again so did Fritz by bringing out the queen so quickly and launching an attack before fully developed.
This opening is freaky. I don't like it at all. Maybe if I learned it better I would, but it makes me very uncomfortable as White.
I can see why it would be interesting once you get to know it though, as it seems highly tactical from the get go.
5. Nb5 bothers me as it breaks a number of the rules I've learned to play by. Move a piece twice i ...[text shortened]... ich likewise defeats the point of the gambit. It also blocks the Queen from defending our d5 N.
5. Nc3 does beg for 5... Bb4 granted, but it's often played anyway.
5. Bd3, you're right, it was another of my many typos, should've been 5. Be3 and it does give up the centre pawn, the only reason for playing it is to allow 6. Nd2 to chase of the queen without blocking in the bishop. I'm not sure where your blocking statement comes from, the dark bishop on e3 is centralised and defended, the real problem pieces are the knights (where to place them after the Queen has gone) and the white queen, although once the black queen is gone, the knights are free to move again and will also free up the white queen.
The only way to defend both the pawn and the d4 knight is Qd3.
04 Jan 05
2 edits
You're right, it does break conventional opening rules, but then again so did Fritz by bringing out the queen so quickly and launching an attack before fully developed.
Not the rules I follow, though mine might be a bit different than some of the more common ones - which I guess would be the 'conventional' ones.
My rules are indifferent to when the Queen comes out. The biggest thing I am going for in development is getting the Rooks to protect each other. Since the Queen can act as a Rook in this capacity she doesn't interfere with this principle one way or another.
Attacks against center Pawns or ones which cause the opponent to waste as much developing tempo as the attack wastes are fine also. Why center Pawns? It's something I got from My System.
I'm not sure where your blocking statement comes from, the dark bishop on e3 is centralised and defended
I made a mistake here. Ignore that statement of mine.
04 Jan 05
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungOh don't worry ATY!
I think I overlooked the fact that the light B is protecting the b5N. This makes a little more sense now I guess. Interesting to be playing a gambit vs Fritz, especially in light of what of happened to Feivel.
What i fear (and, IMHO, I'm almost sure of that) is that after 5. Nb5 Fritz will play 5. ... Bc5 (not 5. ... Bb4+ as suggested by Ragnorak, which is also a respectable option).
After 5. ... Bc5 we are left with two options:
6. Qf3
6. Qe2
We should investigate these continuations before deciding for 5. Nb5.
But in advance, i have to confess that my heart is with 5. Nb5 🙂
Cheers
EDIT: only spelling
04 Jan 05
Assuming 5... Bc5, I'd go for 6. Qf3 rather than Qe2 as it keeps the light square bishop able to move and just seems more in keeping with the Nb5 attack. From there the two obvious options for Fritz are:
6... Nd4 attacking the Queen, 7. Nxd4 Bxd4, and we sadly lose our threat. 8. c3 Bb5 maintains his attack or 8. c3 Be5 blocks our e pawn
6.... Bb6 (guarding c7) 9. Be3 Ba5+ 10. c3 seems sensible.
But computers are materialistic, I'm pretty sure Fritz'll grab the pawn with the 5... Bb4+ 6. Bd2 Qxe4+ 7. Be2 Kd8 8. o-o line.
05 Jan 05
1 edit
Originally posted by LittleBearCan u explain what's weak about 7...Qxg2?
The main line is 7. ... Kd8.
The alternatives
7. ... Qxg2 and
7. ... Bx d2+
seems to be weak too.
At least, that what theory says 🙂
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Qh4 5. Nb5 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 Qxe4+ 7. Be2 Qxg2 8. Nxc7+ Kd8 9. Nxa8 Qxh1+ 10. Bf1
It looks like black gets a big advantage after that? White's knight is trapped in the corner, and black is up 2 pawns, if the queen captures the h pawn.
Or am I missing something about this opening? Hmmm, I guess 8. Bf3 is the move? Then black is in a fair bit of trouble.
[EDIT] don't need an answer to the original question in the post, just posted this for information purposes after I sussed the 8. Bf3.
D