30 Jun 09
Just came across this neat,famous endgame study.Although I've never seen it before so it can't be THAT famous 😉
White to play and win.
1. c7 Rd6+ 2. Kb5 (2. Kc5? Rd1 and 3...Rc1!) Rd5+ 3. Kb4 Rd4+ 4. Kb3 Rd3+ 5. Kc2! Rd4! 6. c8R! (threatening 7.Ra8#; instead 6.c8Q? Rc4+! 7.Qxc4 is stalemate) 6...Ra4 7.Kb3, and Black must either lose the rook or be mated by Rc1
01 Jul 09
Originally posted by BlacksonYes,I know it's famous.
1. c7 ..Rd6+ 2. Kb5 ..Rd5+ 3. Kb4 ..Rd4+ 4. Kb3 ..Rd3+ 5. Kc2! ..Rd4! 6. c8 (underpromote to rook) ..Ra4 7.Kb3
I think you just haven't heard of it. Wikipedia says it's the "best known chess endgame study"
I posted it because if I don't know it there'll be many others who don't.Had you seen it before?
Imagine how many white's have resigned in such a position?How many have drawn?
01 Jul 09
honestly no, i googled it. But your right though it seems like an endgame position that would show up frequently.
Would this be your favourite endgame study? I can't give my own opinion I only know a few, although I really like the rook and bishop verse rook philidor position.
01 Jul 09
3 edits
Yes - I have seen it before. I remember you have to underpromote to a rook to win the game - if you promote to a queen it is stalemate - I've got it in several of my books but being me, I'd never remember the position and the sequence of moves necessary to win the game from the position without referring to my books (one of which is an Australian book, "The Chess Player's Bible" by James Eade, by the way).
And it's also in "Fundamental Chess Endings" by Mueller and Lamprecht, p.164, and in "Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual", p.135
01 Jul 09
Originally posted by BlacksonI have no favorite endgame study as I've never bothered much with endings.In my 1 remaining game here I have to mate with Q vs R,something I've never done before so was looking for tips onit and just happened to come across this Saavedra thing.
honestly no, i googled it. But your right though it seems like an endgame position that would show up frequently.
Would this be your favourite endgame study? I can't give my own opinion I only know a few, although I really like the rook and bishop verse rook philidor position.
Whenever I see something that's new to me I post it 🙂
tobler,you've seen it,the idea is stored somewhere in the back of your head,if you recognise the position during a game I'm sure you'll find the moves.It's not that difficult once you know it,just have to recognise it.
01 Jul 09
Originally posted by Mad RookIt's from a game Potter - ... I thought.
I've seen the study before, and it is nice to go through.
But with the black king on a1, it seems to me to be a very specific position which the average player would never actually get in his lifetime. I wonder how often this position has actually occurred in games?
01 Jul 09
Originally posted by Mad RookWell,the king could be at h1 too,increasing the probability 😛
I've seen the study before, and it is nice to go through.
But with the black king on a1, it seems to me to be a very specific position which the average player would never actually get in his lifetime. I wonder how often this position has actually occurred in games?
But yeah,this exact position may not be very likely.However,take this much more likely position:
White to play and win
Much easier to win but how many you think have resigned or drawn similar positions?Especially when the position hasn't yet been reached but you see it coming: "ohno,he'll be a rook up against my lone pawn.I might as well resign right now".
The rook being unable to stop the pawn promotion is what struck me most.It's not particularly difficult or spectacular but if you don't know it it's not that obvious.
Not to me anyway 😀
01 Jul 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Romanticusthese are both elementary rook endings, the type you run into during the first few pages in your rook endings book or the rook section in a more general endgame book. these are essential to know (nevermind that dan heisman thinks they're not, every strong endgame player will absolutely disagree with him).
...It's not particularly difficult or spectacular but if you don't know it it's not that obvious.
Not to me anyway 😀
the point of these positions is not that the defending side got himself into a weird looking position which turns out to be lost. the point is to learn the techniques to win those positions, ie. to learn new unintuitive maneuvers the rook can perform.
because never in a million years would a normal players stumble his way into a 'building a bridge' maneuver, unless someone showed it to him first.
01 Jul 09
Originally posted by heinzkatWikipedia has a nice summary of the history of the position.
It's from a game Potter - ... I thought.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saavedra_position
Pretty neat. Potter and Fenton play a game in 1875, later analyzed by Zukertort. Upon Potter's death in 1895, Barbier misremembers a position from the game and then further modifies the errant position to create an new endgame study with the caption "Black to move and draw". A few days later, a reader of average chess ability writes in and shows a winning under-promotion for white.
So half a dozen people over 20 years accidentally collaborate to create a very beautiful endgame study.