01 Jul 06
1 edit
OK, I've gone through evey decent Sicilian variation so far and have narrowed down my second choice to the Sveshnikov, Classical and the Najdorf. They all seem very strong. In fact, I can't even be sure which is objectively better. It will be difficult to make a decision.
01 Jul 06
Originally posted by exigentskyObjectively they are probably all the same. With the Classical you need to be able to cope with the Richter-Rauser attack, with the Najdorf there's a load of attacks based on 6. Be2, 6. Be3, 6. f3, 6. f4, 6. Bc4 and 6. Bg5 to contend with and white can give you a difficult time in the Svesnikov. Which of these do you feel most comfortable playing - the key here is ask which is subjectively better.
OK, I've gone through evey decent Sicilian variation so far and have narrowed down my second choice to the Sveshnikov, Classical and the Najdorf. They all seem very strong. In fact, I can't even be sure which is objectively better. It will be difficult to make a decision.
01 Jul 06
Originally posted by exigentskyBecause you are playing bad lines broseph. Don't in the first line, you knew it yourself that Nxd4 was bad, although the Nd5 jump after Be6 is nothing to worry about.
For example: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Nc6 7. f3 Bg7 8. Qd2
Bd7 9. O-O-O Rc8 10. g4 h5
Black isn't necessarily in trouble, but it is an uneasy game.
In the second line that's quoted here is what you should play:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Nc6 7. f3 Bg7 8. Qd2 0-0!
if now 9. 0-0-0 you play the strong pawn sacrifice ..d5!
and if 9. Bc4 NOW you play 9..Bd7 10. 0-0-0 Ne5 11. Bb3 Rc8, and now if he plays g4, which seems to worry you, you play 12..b5! starting your attack and exploiting the fact that if he takes with Ndxb5, you shatter his center structure with Nxf3!. Now you follow up either g5 or h4 with b4, and you hit him first. Here is a game I played against a 2000 player in blitz not too long ago:
[Event "Blitz:5'"]
[Site "North Olmsted"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Rust, Larry"]
[Black "Rotella, Tony"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "48"]
[TimeControl "5 0"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Ne5 11. Bb3 Rc8 12. g4 b5 13. g5 b4 14. Nd5 Nxd5 15. Bxd5 e6 16. Bb3 a5 17. a4 bxa3 18. bxa3 a4 19.Ba2 Nc4 20. Bxc4 Rxc4 21. h4 Qc7 22. h5 Qc5 23. Kb2 Rb8+ 24. Ka2 Rc3
In the line you gave, you met g4 with h5. That's a huge no no. You meet 12. h4 with h5!, called the Soltis system, but not g4. 🙂 There's a nice little Dragon lesson for the day. Any other variations givin' you probs?
01 Jul 06
1 edit
Originally posted by buddy2OK, I played a few Sveshnikov games and also observes some by Vladmir K. I think it's sound, but it really isn't too my liking. I like to have a good structure and the pawn weaknesses are annoying. Maybe I can learn to love it, but for now, I will examine the Najdorf and Classical in more detail.
Yea, try the kan. Not so much memorization. Schevnikov is unsound. Stuck with a backward dpawn the rest of your life.
TONY, I will checkout the Dragon once more. Thanks.
01 Jul 06
Originally posted by exigentskyI have Starting out:The sicilian, which really helped me out. If you continue to have trouble deciding it's worth taking a look at.
OK, I played a few Sveshnikov games and also observes some by Vladmir K. I think it's sound, but it really isn't too my liking. I like to have a good structure and the pawn weaknesses are annoying. Maybe I can learn to love it, but for now, I will examine the Najdorf and Classical in more detail.
TONY, I will checkout the Dragon once more. Thanks.
01 Jul 06
Originally posted by !~TONY~!I really don't like d5, what do you think about Bd7 instead? Also, why not 8..Bd7 instead of 0-0?
Because you are playing bad lines broseph. Don't in the first line, you knew it yourself that Nxd4 was bad, although the Nd5 jump after Be6 is nothing to worry about.
In the second line that's quoted here is what you should play:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Nc6 7. f3 Bg7 8. Qd2 0-0!
if now 9. 0-0-0 you play the stro ...[text shortened]... e little Dragon lesson for the day. Any other variations givin' you probs?
01 Jul 06
1 edit
Originally posted by exigentskyThe mainline is...
I really don't like d5, what do you think about Bd7 instead? Also, why not 8..Bd7 instead of 0-0?
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 (For the Yugoslav) Bg7 7.f3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Bc4 (or O-O-O which allows the immediate d5) 9.Bd7 10.O-O-O Do at this point black could probably play Bd7, but d5 seems better and I'm sure that Tony can bring more light to the subject. Also, why do you want to play 8...Bd7? I'll have to go look at the line that Tony posted, but it seems to me that 8...Nc6 and 8...O-O are consider best, but I suppose switching up moves 8 and 9 wouldn't make a huge difference.
EDIT: You know what, wait for Tony's response, it will be much more clear and in-depth...
01 Jul 06
Originally posted by exigentskyWhat the heck don't you like about d5!? It's the move sicilian players dream of playing, and you get to play it on move 9! What's the problem with it. All the best players play this move and it's regarded as easily the best. I don't like ..Bd7 because of these two games, covering whites options...
I really don't like d5, what do you think about Bd7 instead? Also, why not 8..Bd7 instead of 0-0?
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O Bd7 10. g4 Rc8 11. h4 Ne5 12. h5 Qa5 13. Nb3 Qc7 14. Be2 b5 15. Kb1 b4 (15... Nc4 16. Bxc4 bxc4 17.Nd4! Qb7 18.Qh2 Rb8 19. Bc1! h6 20. hxg6 fxg6 21. b3?! cxb3 22. axb3 Rfc8 23. Rd3?! h5 24. gxh5 Nxh5 25. Qg2 +-) 16. Nd5 Nxd5 17. exd5 a5 18. Nd4 a4 19. Bh6 b3 20. cxb3 axb3 21. Bxg7 bxa2+ 22. Ka1 Kxg7 23. hxg6 fxg6 24. Qh6+ Kf7 25. f4+-
These are both from Dearing's book. He makes a good point that if Black continues with the normal plan after 9..Bd7 of ..Ne5, ..Rc8, ..Nc4 etc...He will lose two tempi after a Bxc4 by white since he didn't play either Bc4 or Bb3. People play 9. Bc4 to stop ..d5! from black, so if you don't play, it just seems wrong. 9..Bd7 is under somewhat of a cloud these days, while ..d5 is in excellent shape. Also, 8..Bd7 is wrong simply because it isn't clear that bishop should move yet. You are certain that you are gonna play ..0-0, so play it immediately. Also, if you play 8..Bd7, you can't play 9..d5! (WHICH YOU SHOULD PLAY!) against 9. 0-0-0. If you are gonna take up the Dragon, you need to play the best moves. No doddling in this crap that used to be played. I think the 9..d5 lines are some of the funnest ever for black. Here is a game I played against a friend in this variation on Thursday.
[Event "Blitz:5'"]
[Site "North Olmsted"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Swaney, Paul"]
[Black "Rotella, Tony"]
[Result "0-1"]
[PlyCount "34"]
[TimeControl "300"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.Nxd5 cxd5 13. Qxd5 Qc7 14. Qc5 Qb7 15. Bd4 Bf5 16. Qa3 (16. Bxg7 Rfc8!) 16...Rfc8 17. c3?? Bh6+!
01 Jul 06
OK, I understand, d5 is probably the best move. (but not by engines) The problem for me is that "it just feels wrong" to move a pawn once and then the same pawn once more a few moves later before development is completed. It's as if you've lost a tempo. Maybe it all works out fine, but since I play the HAD, I'm used to playing d5 in one shot and not doing so seems a bit weak. I'm probably just biased. After all, d5 scores quite well and Bd7 scores only a bit better in GM games.
01 Jul 06
1 edit
Originally posted by exigentskyI don't know about the specific line under discussion, but I do agree with you that yes, it's very hard to know when to break these kinds of opening principles. This, however, is a great example:
OK, I understand, d5 is probably the best move. (but not by engines) The problem for me is that "it just feels wrong" to move a pawn once and then the same pawn once more a few moves later before development is completed. It's as if you've lost a tempo. Maybe it all works out fine, but since I play the HAD, I'm used to playing d5 in one shot and not doing just biased. After all, d5 scores quite well and Bd7 scores only a bit better in GM games.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044315
Black's opening play rushes to prepare ...e5 and also stop white from this push, but makes ...Bf5 or ...Bg4 impossible for the time-being. Fischer exploits both these factors to gain a superior position *instantly* in the opening with the paradoxical (since 2. d3) 6. d4. He will keep e5 under his control and comfortably develop his bishop to d3. When black finally breaks with ...e5 and gets in ...Bg4, it is already too late and his position is falling to pieces. Mercilessly clear, simple and effective play by Fischer, all predicated on a marvellously nuanced moment early in the game.
If I've remembered my theory right, there is a vaguely comparable line for black in the Sicilian, viz: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 (aiming for a bind with 6. c4 - black must react quick) e5 6. Bb5+ Nbd7 7. Nf5 d5 8. exd5 a6 9. Ba4 b5 10. Bb3 Nb6 11. Ne3, when experience has shown black has full compensation for the pawn. (Although my experience is that I lose this position as both black and white!)
01 Jul 06
Originally posted by exigentskyIt feels wrong to me to not play d5 if you are allowed to do so. It doesn't matter if you've pushed it once, and then push it again. I understand you perfectly but trust me, it's a substantially better move, although Bd7 is interesting (but probably dubious) also. Go into the chesspublishing.com Dragons forum and ask battlehardened Dragon players which move is best. Nxd4 and Bd7 don't compare to d5. And once again, don't worry about databases scores. These basically have nothing to do with the theoretical soundness of any opening. Of course if black scores like 25% you can assume it sucks, but it really pays to look at the critical lines as played by the best. If you are satisfied with what black gets against the toughest lines white can dish out, then who cares what they score? For me it was when Golubev, as black, drew Shirov in an interesting ..d5 game. It seems to me that after 15. Kb1 black is busted(or just worse) in the 9..Bd7 lines, and that is Edward Dearing's opinion too. He didn't recommend that option simply because he couldn't find an improvement for black. You should pick that book up. It's my bible. 🙂
OK, I understand, d5 is probably the best move. (but not by engines) The problem for me is that "it just feels wrong" to move a pawn once and then the same pawn once more a few moves later before development is completed. It's as if you've lost a tempo. Maybe it all works out fine, but since I play the HAD, I'm used to playing d5 in one shot and not doing ...[text shortened]... just biased. After all, d5 scores quite well and Bd7 scores only a bit better in GM games.
01 Jul 06
I understand, and yes, it probably would be difficult to get serious counterplay with Bd7. From chatting with you, I've certainly gained a better understandig for the Dragon and do not fear playing it as much as I once did. Still, it seems pretty heavy on theory, maybe even more so than the Najdorf. One slight inaccuracy can mean the difference between crushing defeat and a good dynamic position.
I've dabbled into a whole bunch of Sicilians for the past few weeks. I've explored countless lines and the funny thing is that they all have a problem somewhere down the line. In chess, there is never a free lunch. Each move is double edged, each move leaves something behind. Thus, I've actually come to appreaciate the HAD more than I did before.
I've also found (I'm sure this time!!!) a good weapon vs the Maroczy bind. The hedgehog! It is seldom played but has thus far scored excellently. It is a solid highly imbalanced hypermodern opening with good winning chances. It is still quite positional, but much more dynamic than my usual (very drawish) handling fo the Maroczy bind. (Although, I have won about 25% of my games in the Maroczy anyway. In fact, checkout a recent RHP game in the Maroczy: Game 2079970)
Here it is:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6
3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Bg7
5.c4 b6 6.Nc3 Bb7
...b6 is likely not the best move. The way I handled it originally with 4... Nc6...Nf6...Nxd is probably better objectively, but it is also more drawish. 🙂 b6 seems like an excellent way to take the sting out of the Maroczy. I'll keep you guys updated about how it's working for me.
01 Jul 06
Originally posted by exigentskyYou should check out some of Suba's games in the Hedgehog. For a while he was the Master. I play both sides of the Marcozy v Hedgehog, albeit the latter with ..e6 and ... Be7 initially, and it usually makes for a fascinating contest. Btw, I heard Kasparov in one of his recent volumes endorsed the Hedgehog, maybe his comments are worth checking out. Although the opening has remained off-mainstream - maybe because it is reached by so many transpositions a solid theoretical basis is hard to find - but btw that also is a practical advantage for black - perhaps his support is not that surprising, given its similarities to his handling of the Schveningen versus Karpov.
I've also found (I'm sure this time!!!) a good weapon vs the Maroczy bind. The hedgehog! It is seldom played but has thus far scored excellently. It is a solid highly imbalanced hypermodern opening with good winning chances.