14 Jun 06
1 edit
Originally posted by !~TONY~!Yeah, ok, that's pretty near, I want to go even though I'm not exactly a little kid anymore... 😀 how did you find out about it?
Haha, If you are anywhere near Cleveland than Mayfield is close. I take 480 E to 271 N and I am there in about 45 minutes. I live in a suburb of Cleveland. It wasn't advertised all that much. It's a camp for young kids mostly, but there is an advanced sections with the highest rated player being about USCF 1700 or something like that.
14 Jun 06
Originally posted by !~TONY~!Cool! Enjoy.
the toughest line against the Benoni is the f4/Bb5+ stuff, where white almost always get's e5 in, and black has to hope his play elsewhere is good enough. Well I am off for a couple of hours. GM Alexander Shabalov gives free lectures at this place in the mall 5 minutes from my house, which is an insanely good opportunity if you ask me. 🙂
I think it was f4-f5 without e5 that killed the variation at the top level, incidentally:
Kasparov - Nunn, Lucern 1982:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.e4 g6 7.f4 Bg7 8.Bb5+ Nfd7 {The most common reply. 8. ... Bd7 runs into ugly complications with 9. e5. The move 8. ...Nbd7 invites the extremely double-edged 9. e5 dxe5 10. fxe5 Nh5 11. e6} 9.a4 Na6 10.Nf3 Nb4 11.O-O a6 12.Bxd7+ Bxd7 13.f5 O-O {Still the best defence according to Kasparov who gives analysis to show that 13. ...gxf5 14. Bg5 is very strong for White. -- Borik } 14.Bg5 f6 15.Bf4 gxf5 {A desperate move which only hastens the end. -- Borik} 16.Bxd6 Bxa4 17.Rxa4 Qxd6 18.Nh4 fxe4 19.Nf5 Qd7 20.Nxe4 Kh8 21.Nxc5 { After 21. ...Qxd5 22. Qxd5 Nxd5 23. Ne6 Black is forced to lose the exchange, and at least a pawn to Rd4. A fine victory for Garry.} 1-0
Notes c&p'd from chessgames.com.
14 Jun 06
Originally posted by !~TONY~!What the hell?!? How do you hear about all this stuff?
I watched that Topalov-Radjabov game live, and it was great to see. I love the KID/Benoni, so it was a moral victory for me. You are right, the toughest line against the Benoni is the f4/Bb5+ stuff, where white almost always get's e5 in, and black has to hope his play elsewhere is good enough. Well I am off for a couple of hours. GM Alexander Shabalov gives ...[text shortened]... ce in the mall 5 minutes from my house, which is an insanely good opportunity if you ask me. 🙂
14 Jun 06
I've been looking more and more at the Benoni, particularly the sharp b5 line.
It looks like this:
I like sharp positions like that, but it is curious that Black scores only about 25% in this line after ...exd6. Not even the Maroczy bind has such bad percentages. Do you guys think Bxb2 might give black far better chances? As it stands now, the situation is pretty sad. It's almost as if the b5 line is refuted.
14 Jun 06
1 edit
I think Bxb2 only slows down black's development even more. Black might be losing in those lines because development looks to be VERY far behind. If white can find a quick strike a win should be easy. I'm not a sicilian expert (yet) so you'll have to wait for others like Tony to respond.
EDIT: maybe the very shouldn't be in all caps, but you get my point. Now that I look at it, development might not be the issue, it seems surprising that it scores so low, have you tested it out yet?
15 Jun 06
Originally posted by exigentskyI like the dragon, but the O'Kelly with 2. ...a6 is what i think is the best.
I know that there really isn't a "best" Sicilian for everyone. However, in your opinion, which Sicilian do you consider to be the "best." Right now, I'm debating between the Sveshnikov, Dragon and the Najdorf.
BTW: I previously believed that the Najdorf was without a doubt the best Sicilian, but upon buying a book on it, I'm no longer certain. It seem ...[text shortened]... ome lines. Learn more here: http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=42018
15 Jun 06
Originally posted by zebanoIf you are usually crushed by the yugoslav try refraining from ...Qa5 and use the Tarjan variation it is a closed game but is fast and plays like an open one. In other words it is not wery positional but tactical and full of attacking opportunities for white and black.
I've played all 3 in tournaments. I am very bad with the dragon (I dislike memorizing tons of theory though sadly I probably know quite a bit now) and was usually crushed by the Yugoslav attack. The najdorf was my choice for many years and is very sound. I just picked up the Sveshnikov and it is definatly my choice, especially in blitz games.
15 Jun 06
Originally posted by exigentskyWell here is what I (and Junior to really check everything and give it evaluations) came up with. Hopefully you have a chessbase engine that you can load it up with and check out the variations. Junior is probably the best engine for complications and compensation and such. The lines look pretty tense. It looks like if Black walks a fine line he can hold the position after Bxb2, but it doesn't look like it actually gives him any winning chances. Here we go:
Well here is how it would go... Bxb2 11. Rb1 Nf6 12. Nfg5 Nxe4 13. Nxe4 Bf5 Black has managed to trade off a piece and has somewhat uncorked his position. It seems better than exd5 to me.
[Event "Blitz:4'+2""]
[Site "North Olmsted"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "Junior 9"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "38"]
[TimeControl "240+2"]
{167MB, Junior9.ctg, MAINPC} 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 g6 3. d4 Bg7 4. d5 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6
6. Be2 O-O 7. Bf4 b5 8. e5 (8. Bxb5 Nxe4 9. Nxe4 Qa5+ 10. Nc3 Bxc3+ 11. bxc3
Qxb5 $14) 8... Ng4 9. exd6 b4 10. Ne4 Bxb2 11. Rb1 Nf6 12. Nfg5 (12. Nxf6+ Bxf6
13. dxe7 Qxe7 14. O-O Qe4 15. Bh6 Rd8 16. Re1 Bf5 (16... Qxd5 $4 17. Qxd5 Rxd5
18. Bc4 Rd8 19. Bd5 $1) 17. Bd3 Qxd5 18. Bxf5 Qxd1 19. Rexd1 Rxd1+ 20. Rxd1
gxf5 21. Rd5 Be7 22. Rxf5 Nc6 $11) (12. Bg5 Bf5 13. Rxb2 Bxe4 14. dxe7 Qxe7 $11
) 12... Nxe4 13. Nxe4 Bf5 (13... Bg7 $5 14. dxe7 (14. O-O exd6 15. Nxd6 Nd7 16.
Re1 Bc3 17. Bd2 Be5 18. Nxc8 Rxc8 19. Bb5 Re8 20. Qg4 Nf6 21. Qf3 Qxd5 22. Bxe8
Rxe8 23. Qxd5 Nxd5 24. Kf1 $16) 14... Qxe7 15. f3 Bf5 16. Bd6 Qh4+ 17. g3 Qh3
18. Bxf8 Kxf8 19. Bf1 Qh5 20. Bg2 (20. g4 $2 Qh4+) 20... Nd7 21. O-O $18) 14.
Rxb2 Bxe4 15. f3 (15. O-O exd6 $11) 15... Bf5 16. g4 (16. dxe7 Qxe7 17. O-O Nd7
18. Bb5 Qf6 $11) 16... Bc8 17. dxe7 Qxe7 18. O-O Qf6 (18... Re8 $5 19. Bb5 Bd7
20. Bc4 (20. Bxd7 Nxd7 $15) 20... Qf6 21. Bc1 $11) 19. Bc1 Ba6 $11 *
Sorry for the huge mess. If you copy and paste it in Fritz or whatnot make sure you copy the top part, else it paste the side variations in. Feel free to add stuff that your engine finds and send it on back. Maybe we can make you something of an opening book off of all this analysis. 😀
15 Jun 06
2 edits
Originally posted by !~TONY~!OK, OK, it seems like b5 just doesn't work quite as well as d6 no matter what I try. So, I suppose with the best moves for both sides, the position should look like this (after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 4.d5 Nf6 5.Nc3 O-O 6.Be2 d6
Well here is what I (and Junior to really check everything and give it evaluations) came up with. Hopefully you have a chessbase engine that you can load it up with and check out the variations. Junior is probably the best engine for complications and compensation and such. The lines look pretty tense. It looks like if Black walks a fine line he can hold th e we can make you something of an opening book off of all this analysis. 😀
7.O-O e6 ):
In this position, Black scores a respectable 47% according to Chessbase. What do you think TONY, would you say this is acceptable for you?
This position is probably not better than the Maroczy bind. I don't believe this just because engines give the bind a score of 0 and the Benoni a score of 0.16. This is pretty meaningless in the end. After all, some Najdorf lines where engines evaluate White as 0.56 turn out fine for black. No, this is from my own analysis and intuition.
However, there is a MAJOR difference in the nature of White's very slight advantage in the Benoni and Maroczy. In the Maroczy, White's advantage lies in the static elements of the position. The pawns on c4 and e4 prevent d5 and make queenside play difficult. Black is effectively contained and as such, winning chances basically evaporate. On the other hand, if White tries to go after Black, he is let out of the cage and thus maintains equality till the very end. In any case, White's advantage is in space and quite static. Thus, it is an advantage that will be maintained basically throughout the entire game in the absence of tactical errors. On the other hand, in the Benoni, White's advantage is more dynamic. Certainly e4 and d5 provide a space advantage, but it is basically meaningless after e6. Thus, the Benoni gives black far more dynamic play and makes it much more difficult for White to secure a draw. The positions resulting are exciting and always complex, a stark contrast to the Maroczy. This is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. White's advantage in the Benoni can evaporate within a few moves but in the Maroczy, the advantage in space never goes away. This is why I prefer that White has a dynamic advantage rather than a static one.
OKAY, after that long rant, here are my conclusions. The Maroczy gives black equality with best play but almost zero winning chances, although this applies to White too. The Benoni, while not better, gives Black a complicated and dynamic position with many opportunities to prove an advantage. Hence, I will allow the Maroczy against those much higher than me and I will offer the Benoni (with 3 ...Bg7) against lower rated or equal opposition. I get the best of both worlds! A forced draw when I want one and a complicated position when I need a win. 🙂
BTW; It's kind of funny that I discounted Bg7 before. I noticed that engines gave Bg7 about .10 more for White and I thought, surely cxd is the best move. Then, I noticed that the best players were playing Bg7 but I also noticed that White scores about 65% after d5. I thought, what a joke. I'm never playing that and analyzed no further. Now, I realize that even though d5 scores very well for White as a whole, if the correct lines are picked, Black gets a very good game. Ahh, how misleading engines and statistics can be. The sample size was good as were the ELOs, but I did not search far enough. I'm really happy I didn't completely ignore this line.
15 Jun 06
I agree with pretty much everything you say, but don't forget that in the Benoni position White has a static advantage in the fact that he has more space. You certainly have more play in the Benoni style position though. The only thing I would worry about if you are worried about winning in these kids of positions is that if White doesn't want you to do anything, it's hard to do anything! For example if he puts the clamp down on b5 with a4, Bd3, Qe2, or something similar, since there is no pawn on e4 Black doesn't really have any active plans. Or masses heavy pieces exchanges can happen down the e-file since it's the only open file on the board. With that said, I would still rather have this position that the bind. 😀 Play some games with it and see what you think. If you still don't like it, I would probably consider looking into some new variations of the Sicilian completely. 😀
15 Jun 06
Originally posted by !~TONY~!Yes, White has more space, but after e6, it doesn't help much. Black is uncorked and ready for action. That's why I don't think the space advantage is too meaningful here.
I agree with pretty much everything you say, but don't forget that in the Benoni position White has a static advantage in the fact that he has more space. You certainly have more play in the Benoni style position though. The only thing I would worry about if you are worried about winning in these kids of positions is that if White doesn't want you to do any ...[text shortened]... I would probably consider looking into some new variations of the Sicilian completely. 😀
Yes, you are right, White can try to play for a draw and just massively trade and try to contain the queenside. However, I don't think this would work out too well. In chess, every move leaves something behind. When White trades something, I have a new opportunity. When White plays a4, I have a new weakness. Thus, I don't think the Benoni would be drawish at all. After all, Tal used it as a ferocious attacking weapon (but with a different move order). And yes, if I really don't have success with the Benoni when White plays d5 instead of Nc3, I will just go all out on the Najdorf or perhaps the Taimanov(doubt it). Sorry, I'm still too much of a pansy for the full Dragon.
Right now, I'm just happy to have found an antidote to the bind. BYPASSING IT COMPLETELY. For months I've searched for a way to create strong counterplay in the bind, to create winning chances, a las it just doesn't seem to be possible. At least, it isn't if White plays good moves and that's what I always rely on in analysis. This finally avoids the bind. On the other hand, I will probably get far more d5s than I ever got c4s. (this would have changed at the >1850 levels though)