15 Dec 07
Originally posted by KorchI was under the opinion that it was known fact that the Latvian was not good. I always held faith in the line:
I would say that drawing with perfect play is the most what black can achieve if white plays perfect 🙂
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 when:
5..Qf7 6. Ne3 c6 7. d3! exd3 8. Bxd3 d5 9. 0-0! is near winning for White.
and
5..Qg6 6. d3! Bb4 7. Bd2 Nf6 8. Nxe4 Bxd2+ 9. Qxd2 Nxe4 10. dxe4 Qxe4 11. Ne3, when, how could White not be much better!?
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by !~TONY~!About "1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 Qf7 6. Ne3 c6 7. d3! exd3 8. Bxd3 d5 9. 0-0! is near winning for White." I would disagree.
I was under the opinion that it was known fact that the Latvian was not good. I always held faith in the line:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 when:
5..Qf7 6. Ne3 c6 7. d3! exd3 8. Bxd3 d5 9. 0-0! is near winning for White.
and
5..Qg6 6. d3! Bb4 7. Bd2 Nf6 8. Nxe4 Bxd2+ 9. Qxd2 Nxe4 10. dxe4 Qxe4 11. Ne3, when, how could White not be much better!?
15 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by !~TONY~!First of all, it is generally accepted by most leading theoreticians that 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 is white's strongest way of playing against the Traxler, so hardly an "unsupported claim". The only 'doubt' I have about 6.Bd5 is that I accept it is possible that 6.Bb3 is equally strong!
You're right. Jan Pinski has no idea what he's talking about, and since you make the unsupported claim that 6. Bd5 is more accurate, I suppose I will believe you over a well respected IM. What line are you referring to 8. Be3 in?
The line I was referring to was 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Rf8 7.d3 (7.0-0 may be better) 7...d6 8.Be3! with the idea of giving the pawn back after 8...Bxe3 9.fxe3 Ng4 10.Nf3 (10.Nxh7!?) 10...Nxe3 11.Qd2 Ng4 12.Nc3 with a very nice position for white.
15 Dec 07
Just to try to be fair to the Traxlerites, here's a GM game with 6.Bd5 where black wins! However, look through the game and you will see that Beliavsky is completely busted in the opening. He cleverly manages to confuse and eventually swindle Anand later in the game.
Anand,V (2635) - Beliavsky,A (2640) [C57]
Linares 9th Linares (3), 1991
[Schussler]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Bxc6 bxc6 9.Be3 Qg6 10.Nf3 Bxe3 11.fxe3 Qxg2 12.Rg1 Qh3 13.Rxg7+ Kd8 14.Rg3± Qh6 15.Qe2 Ng4? 16.h3 Nf6 (16...Nxe3 17.Ng5+-; 16...Qxe3 17.Qxe3 Nxe3 18.Na3+-) 17.Nbd2 Ba6 18.0-0-0 Ke7 19.h4 (19.Rdg1!?) 19...Rag8 20.Rg5+- Qf8 21.Nh2?! Qf7 22.b3 h6 23.Rf5? Bc8 24.Rf3 Qh5 25.Rdf1 Rg3 26.d4 Rxf3 27.Nhxf3 Ng4 28.Qd3 Rf8 29.Qc3 Bd7 30.Kb2 exd4 31.exd4 Kd8 32.e5 Rf4 33.Re1 Qf5 34.Kc1 (34.Qa5!+-)
34...Kc8 35.a4 d5 36.Kb2 Be8 37.Re2 Qf8 38.a5?! Kb7 39.a6+?! Kxa6 40.e6 Kb7 41.Re1 Qd6 42.b4 Nf2 43.Nb3 Ne4 44.Nc5+? Qxc5! 0-1
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern LadThe line you give there is actually pretty good but i'd say the position is near equal after 12. ... Ke8.
First of all, it is generally accepted by most leading theoreticians that 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 is white's strongest way of playing against the Traxler, so hardly an "unsupported claim". The only 'doubt' I have about 6.Bd5 is that I accept it is possible that 6.Bb3 is equally strong!
The line I was referring to was 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Rf8 7.d3 (7.0-0 may b ...[text shortened]... xe3 Ng4 10.Nf3 (10.Nxh7!?) 10...Nxe3 11.Qd2 Ng4 12.Nc3 with a very nice position for white.
Maybe a slight tempo advantage for white but no more than the original half move edge from the natural position.
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern LadCite the theoreticians! I would tend to believe Pinski, given that he wrote the most recent material on this opening. In the line you give with 8. Be3!, as mentioned before 6. Bb3 Rf8 7. d3 h6! is the best move, when 8. Nf3 d6 9. Be3 Bg4 10. Bxc5 dxc5 11. Nbd2 Nd4 12. h3 Bh5 13. 0-0 Nxf3+ 14. Nxf3 Qc8! 15. Kh2 g5 16. Qe2 g4 17. hxg4 Nxg4+ 18. Kg1 Qe8 was given by Pinksi, when Black has play.
First of all, it is generally accepted by most leading theoreticians that 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 is white's strongest way of playing against the Traxler, so hardly an "unsupported claim". The only 'doubt' I have about 6.Bd5 is that I accept it is possible that 6.Bb3 is equally strong!
The line I was referring to was 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Rf8 7.d3 (7.0-0 may b ...[text shortened]... xe3 Ng4 10.Nf3 (10.Nxh7!?) 10...Nxe3 11.Qd2 Ng4 12.Nc3 with a very nice position for white.
15 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by !~TONY~!You seem to forget that people who write books have to sell them. Why should I believe what an average IM has to say? A much stronger player than Pinski, namely GM Tony Kosten, has written two (!) books trying to show that the Latvian is an OK opening. May not have done much for his reputation, but his bank manager may not be complaining...
Cite the theoreticians! I would tend to believe Pinski, given that he wrote the most recent material on this opening. In the line you give with 8. Be3!, as mentioned before 6. Bb3 Rf8 7. d3 h6! is the best move, when 8. Nf3 d6 9. Be3 Bg4 10. Bxc5 dxc5 11. Nbd2 Nd4 12. h3 Bh5 13. 0-0 Nxf3+ 14. Nxf3 Qc8! 15. Kh2 g5 16. Qe2 g4 17. hxg4 Nxg4+ 18. Kg1 Qe8 was given by Pinksi, when Black has play.
And in the line you give 9.h3 looks to be more accurate.
15 Dec 07
Simply put: a half open f-file + a tempo isn’t worth a pawn + exposed King.
And that tempo isn’t worth much considering that white starts the game.
Relative to other gambits, such as the Smith-Morra, which is insufficient for White, and the King's Gambit, in which Black can get a fine game, the Traxler is much worse on principle and the analysis will justify that.
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern LadThat's a decent point, although I don't think it's in his best interest to falsify which line is better for white, just to show that in whichever one it is, Black is Ok, no? Interesting fact: I own Kosten's second book. Damn! 😀
You seem to forget that people who write books have to sell them. Why should I believe what an average IM has to say? A much stronger player than Pinski, namely GM Tony Kosten, has written two (!) books trying to show that the Latvian is an OK opening. May not have done much for his reputation, but his bank manager may not be complaining...
And in the line you give 9.h3 looks to be more accurate.
15 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ih8sensI'm sorry, but 12...Ke8 13.0-0-0 (or even castling short) is clearly better for white. Where is black going to put his king? And 10.Nxh7 (rather than 10.Nf3) may even be a tactical refutation. But I prefer quieter means!
The line you give there is actually pretty good but i'd say the position is near equal after 12. ... Ke8.
Maybe a slight tempo advantage for white but no more than the original half move edge from the natural position.
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern Ladif it makes any difference fritz gives equality after either castle and just continues with development... regardless of what you say.. fritz is stronger than both of us and when your opinion differs from fritz the odds are much higher than you are wrong and not the engine.. ESPECIALLY in a tactical line.
I'm sorry, but 12...Ke8 13.0-0-0 (or even castling short) is clearly better for white. Where is black going to put his king?
In my own opinion.. how can you say white is 'clearly better' when development is near equal, king safety is close, and material is equal?
Where is white 'clearly better'?
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by !~TONY~!You wouldn't sell many books on the Traxler if you said it was objectively rather suspect! A lot of opening books are actually pretty dodgy. I remember many years ago buying a book on the Schliemann written by a Russian GM (can't remember who, though think it was in the Batsford series). In it almost every single line was good or even winning for black. Needless to say it had more holes than the proverbial Swiss cheese! I quickly binned it.
That's a decent point, although I don't think it's in his best interest to falsify which line is better for white, just to show that in whichever one it is, Black is Ok, no? Interesting fact: I own Kosten's second book. Damn! 😀
15 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ih8sensKing safety is miles away; he can't castle, remember. If this position isn't better for white, then I clearly do not understand anything about chess. Sorry!
if it makes any difference fritz gives equality after either castle and just continues with development... regardless of what you say.. fritz is stronger than both of us and when your opinion differs from fritz the odds are much higher than you are wrong and not the engine.. ESPECIALLY in a tactical line.
In my own opinion.. how can you say white is 'clea near equal, king safety is close, and material is equal?
Where is white 'clearly better'?
Don't normally like to base my opinions purely on engine assessments, but for your information I have shown the position to Fritz 10, and after about 10 minutes the silicon monster gives 13.0-0 as +1.81, 13.0-0-0 as +1.57 and 13.h3 as +1.45, which is actually more of an advantage for white than I was claiming!
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern LadWinning with the Schliemann by Tseitlin? That book, indeed, sucks.
You wouldn't sell many books on the Traxler if you said it was objectively rather suspect! A lot of opening books are actually pretty dodgy. I remember many years ago buying a book on the Schliemann written by a Russian GM (can't remember who, though think it was in the Batsford series). In it almost every single line was good or even winning for black. Needless to say it had more holes than the proverbial Swiss cheese! I quickly binned it.