12 Dec 07
Originally posted by ih8sensIh8 is right engines CANNOT analyse the Traxler..............dont even try!!
as shown by a pair of games I posted before... fritz is entirely unable to analyze this position .. in one it judged itself better when actually facing a forced mate which it could not find..
in the other it judged the game drawn.. again in the shadow of an obvious loss..
edit - for those interested.. when I play the white end of the traxler gambit aga ...[text shortened]... (depending on which engine I play against.. one has Nx and the other Bx in it's opening book).
13 Dec 07
Originally posted by SquelchbelchIf you're going to use Fritz, you have to use it intelligently and be prepared to take your time, as Dan Heisman (whose effort you pointed out to me in an earlier post) clearly has - 2000 hours! His conclusion? 5.Nxf7 and 5.d4 unclear, 5.Bxf7+ definitely some advantage to white. Confirms really what we already knew...
Does Fritz prefer 5.Bxf7+ or 5.Nxf7?
13 Dec 07
Originally posted by SquelchbelchThe analysis should not have taken more than 24 hours. 2000 hours is equivalent to 8 hours a day for 250 days.
Dan Heisman spent at least 2,000 hours going through all the Traxler lines with Fritz & came to the conclusion that 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5!? may not be sound but he cannot be certain!
http://seagaard.dk/review/eng/sw_opening/cc_traxler.asp?KATID=SW&ID=SW-Opening
In less than a half hour, one can conclude that the 5. Bxf7 lines are insufficient for Black.
13 Dec 07
2 edits
Originally posted by YugaIn most openings (and especially in openings like Traxler) conclusions made "in less than half hour" is really not serious.
The analysis should not have taken more than 24 hours. 2000 hours is equivalent to 8 hours a day for 250 days.
In less than a half hour, one can conclude that the 5. Bxf7 lines are insufficient for Black.
13 Dec 07
Originally posted by KorchI agree and it is true I didn’t memorize specific variations for the Bxf7+ line, simply general ideas, which may or may not be sufficient in a game setting.
In most openings (and especially in openings like Traxler) conclusions made "in less than half hour" is really not serious.
However, I didn't see any line, given the very basic plan I outlined, that remotely gives Black compensation for the pawn in the Bxf7+ line discussed.
13 Dec 07
Bxf2+ is best.. there is no question. My argument is that after Rf8 black has pretty much equalized in the form of a powerful attack in both the center and the kingside. If white castles kingside (as fritz often suggests) black will at least get a draw and is equal if not better. Because of the tactical nature of the game and a rather significant black tempo.. castling queenside is rarely an option and therefore black has given up a pawn and their own castle in exchange for a powerful attack on white where they often are forced to either give the material back or risk a rather precarious position. I must therefore say that the Traxler variation is the best of all forms of the two knights defence being as black has to be prepared to give at least a pawn up there too! The scientists of chess are unable to give decisive answers regarding this opening and therefore one must be willing to give this line to the artists. Sound or not the fact is that black scores wonderfully in all variations of the Traxler and judging by the difficulty GM's have understanding this opening it is fair to say that the Traxler Counterattack is playable at all levels.
13 Dec 07
As usual I am willing to play the traxler as black with any challenger whether rated or unrated. I will also happily play a traxler thematic on the black side against the entire forum or perhaps someone's clan if they want to see the result of this line with perfect play. It seems to me that Nxf7 AND Bxf7+ both draw with perfect play although white has better chances with Bxf7+... believe it or not this seems to consistently prove itself factual.
13 Dec 07
Originally posted by ih8sensIf that were true, believe me it would be played by GMs. But to the best of my knowledge, no GM (by which I really mean 2500+) has played the Traxler in the last 8 years. And why is that? Simple. They have almost certainly had a good look at the 5.Bxf7+ line (where expert judgment rather than calculating long tactical lines is required) and concluded that black simply doesn't get enough compensation to create real practical chances. So they play 4...d5, which (as you point out) also involves a pawn sacrifice, because they feel they get more and better compensation for the pawn that way.
Bxf2+ is best.. there is no question. My argument is that after Rf8 black has pretty much equalized in the form of a powerful attack in both the center and the kingside. If white castles kingside (as fritz often suggests) black will at least get a draw and is equal if not better. Because of the tactical nature of the game and a rather significant black te ...[text shortened]... anding this opening it is fair to say that the Traxler Counterattack is playable at all levels.
13 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern LadThereby making my challenge of the typical GM's intuition and by extension a general acceptance by the chess world far from pallatable. The difference between me and the GM's though is that I'm offering lines, computer analysis, and a refutation of many previously printed 'best lines' for white.
If that were true, believe me it would be played by GMs. But to the best of my knowledge, no GM (by which I really mean 2500+) has played the Traxler in the last 8 years. And why is that? Simple. They have almost certainly had a good look at the 5.Bxf7+ line (where expert judgment rather than calculating long tactical lines is required) and concluded th ...[text shortened]... pawn sacrifice, because they feel they get more and better compensation for the pawn that way.
The reason GM's don't play this line is simply that there are safer ways to make their millions. Very few artists in the high levels of chess world, it's just too hard to break the misconception that engines are perfect tactically.
I do think we agree on one thing though. White does maintain with perfect play (nearly impossible, mind you) a small advantage. Not a full pawns worth but a small one nonetheless. For some, this in itself is reason enough to play 3. Bc5. For the rest of us if it aint broke don't fix it. The Traxler has served me well and I do believe, partially because of all this conflicting 'proof', that the traxler is more than playable and probably (as Karel himself believed) sound. I'd much rather play the line to proove it than argue about it on paper.
14 Dec 07
Originally posted by ih8sensWhat you say really doesn't make a lot of sense and shows you don't understand much of the realities of GM chess. It has absolutely nothing to do with the 'near impossibility' of perfect play or the supposed tactical fallibility of engines. The fact of the matter is the Traxler, at high levels, just doesn't appear to be good enough. On the rare occasions when it has been tried, it has scored poorly.
Thereby making my challenge of the typical GM's intuition and by extension a general acceptance by the chess world far from pallatable. The difference between me and the GM's though is that I'm offering lines, computer analysis, and a refutation of many previously printed 'best lines' for white.
The reason GM's don't play this line is simply that ...[text shortened]... ed) sound. I'd much rather play the line to proove it than argue about it on paper.
Of course, one can never be absolutely certain that improvements and reassessments won't occur, and I certainly expect 4.Ng5 to become more popular at higher levels, which should lead to more attention being paid to this line. However, unless significant improvements are found, the Traxler, at this level, must be considered wanting. This of course does not mean that it isn't entirely playable at lower levels where tactical considerations tend to predominate.
14 Dec 07
Originally posted by YugaThe above plan can be effective for the Bxf7+ followed by Bb3 line; not really for the Bxf7+ followed by Bd5 line (as mistakenly stated by me in a previous post).
c3/d3/if h6, Nf3/Nbd2/0-0 and there is insufficient compensation for the pawn.
The reason Bd5 versus Bb3 is probably because of h6 Nf3 Nxe4 regaining the pawn in the Bb3 line; so perhaps Bd5 is simply objectively better. (White doesn't have to fear d5 in the Bb3 line in any case.) Even so, white is fine in playing the Bb3 line w/h6 Nf3 Nxe4; should Black regain the pawn as such, then 0-0, c3 followed by d4 - looks somewhat like an open Ruy (except Black bishop on c5) and Black's King is in the center so overall white should still have a nice advantage.
14 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by YugaIf you give me the bishop takes pawn lines against me, I will murder you. I got a good record in this position. Open file, more deveopment safe king. They all count for a lot, and its worth a pawn.
The analysis should not have taken more than 24 hours. 2000 hours is equivalent to 8 hours a day for 250 days.
In less than a half hour, one can conclude that the 5. Bxf7 lines are insufficient for Black.
14 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by Northern LadThe "realities of GM chess" is practicality.
What you say really doesn't make a lot of sense and shows you don't understand much of the realities of GM chess. It has absolutely nothing to do with the 'near impossibility' of perfect play or the supposed tactical fallibility of engines. The fact of the matter is the Traxler, at high levels, just doesn't appear to be good enough. On the rare occasion sn't entirely playable at lower levels where tactical considerations tend to predominate.
Main drawback of Traxler (from point of view of professional) is its impracticality - Many people does not play 1.e4 at all, people who plays 1.e4 usually prefer 3.Bb5 not 3.Bc4. After 3.Bc4 Nf6 many players prefer 4.d4 or 4.d3 instead of 4.Ng5. So possibility to play Traxler does not arise so often. If you compare large amount of sharp lines (and its white who choose which one to play) with rare possibility to play them, then you will understand that learning and using Traxler is very impractical.
I hope that I don`t need to explain you that practicalness and soundness of opening/system/line is not the same?