15 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern LadFact is 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 leads to white advantage. Everything else is irrelevant.
Please, please, please, can we forget frigging Fritz. I couldn't give a monkey's *** what's in its opening book. I've said enough times for the dimmest to understand: my comments on the Traxler are not based in any way, shape or form on Fritz or any other engine. Fact is 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 leads to white advantage. Everything else is irrelevant.
Replace word "fact" with "Your (or someone else) Evaluation" and it will sound correct 🙂
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by KaworukunStrange that you seem to understand so much more about chess than the rest of us including people up to a thousand rating points higher. Maybe you coach IMs and GMs in your spare time.
Nope leads too an advantage for black. he has more development, and a nice open file for his rook.
To answer your point: yes, black does have more development and a semi-open f-file for his rook. But white is a very solid pawn up, and many decades of theory and practice has shown that this is worth more than black's temporary lead in development.
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by ih8sensIt certainly not irrelevant at higher levels, where that line of the Traxler scores heavily for white, while 1.e4 c5 scores about 53%. Must mean something.
Fact is that 1. e4, c5 can lead to a white advantage too!
The advantage after Bxf7+ and Bd5 is so minor that IT is irrelevant..
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern LadI suppose that, since it is an uncommon opening, you always have a reasonable chance against an unprepared white player as black - especially if you know roughly what you want to achieve in the middlegame and white is just playing to hold onto his pawn.
Strange that you seem to understand so much more about chess than the rest of us including people up to a thousand rating points higher. Maybe you coach IMs and GMs in your spare time.
To answer your point: yes, black does have more development and a semi-open f-file for his rook. But white is a very solid pawn up, and many decades of theory and practice has shown that this is worth more than black's temporary lead in development.
15 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by KorchBy 'fact' I suppose I mean the generally accepted evaluation of theory. I used to play the Traxler myself back in the 70s but eventually gave it up when I reluctantly had to accept (this is over 30 years ago) that the line 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 is favourable for white. There have been lots of theory and practice on the Traxler since then, including it seems 800 hours of power engine analysis, but essentially nothing has changed to alter the assessment.
[b]Fact is 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 leads to white advantage. Everything else is irrelevant.
Replace word "fact" with "Your (or someone else) Evaluation" and it will sound correct 🙂[/b]
I have said before that at lower levels (say below 2000) the Traxler may be perfectly playable. I have also admitted that you can't entirely rule out the possibility of an improvement (or reassessment) for black somewhere in that line. However, my very strong feeling is that if such existed, it would have been found by now. What appears incontrovertible to me is that in the existing theory of that line of the Traxler, black's compensation is inadequate, not just objectively (the same might apply to the Marshall or Benko) but in terms of practical chances.
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by TyrannosauruschexI agree with that. I certainly wouldn't play 4.Ng5 OTB without having something pretty convincing prepared against the Traxler (and understanding the right way to play it).
I suppose that, since it is an uncommon opening, you always have a reasonable chance against an unprepared white player as black - especially if you know roughly what you want to achieve in the middlegame and white is just playing to hold onto his pawn.
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern LadComing from the person who just looked at the position with an engine. Against another human I will take black my son.
Strange that you seem to understand so much more about chess than the rest of us including people up to a thousand rating points higher. Maybe you coach IMs and GMs in your spare time.
To answer your point: yes, black does have more development and a semi-open f-file for his rook. But white is a very solid pawn up, and many decades of theory and practice has shown that this is worth more than black's temporary lead in development.
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by KaworukunI don't understand your post. Do you mean me? To the best of my recollection, I have never looked at the Traxler with an engine.
Coming from the person who just looked at the position with an engine. Against another human I will take black my son.
15 Dec 07
Northern Lad, why not post a longer line to prove it? Saying the line after Bxf7+ Ke7 Bd5 is good for white means nothing. That's like saying 9. 0-0-0 is good for White in the Dragon (Yugoslav). That's where the theory starts, and there are bunches of tries for both sides! Your posts hold no value if you just strut around in here (figuratively of course) saying things like, "Sorry guys, Bxf7+ is better for White!".
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by !~TONY~!I'm just saying that that is the almost unanimous verdict of theory (and has been for decades) and is the main reason why very few strong players play the Traxler. It's up to aficianados of the Traxler to come up with improvements. I'd certainly be prepared to comment on any offered.
Northern Lad, why not post a longer line to prove it? Saying the line after Bxf7+ Ke7 Bd5 is good for white means nothing. That's like saying 9. 0-0-0 is good for White in the Dragon (Yugoslav). That's where the theory starts, and there are bunches of tries for both sides! Your posts hold no value if you just strut around in here (figuratively of course) saying things like, "Sorry guys, Bxf7+ is better for White!".
15 Dec 07
Alberto David is clearly one GM who decided the Traxler wasn't up to it...(he never played it again)
Howell,J (2525) - David,A (2465) [C57]
Groningen op Groningen, 1995
1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 e5 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.0-0 Rf8 8.Nc3 d6 9.Nd5+ Kd8 10.c3 h6 11.d4 exd4 12.Nxf6 Rxf6 13.e5 Rf5 14.Nf3 Nxe5 15.Nxd4 Rf6 16.Be3 Ng4 17.Re1 Nxe3 18.Rxe3 Qf8 19.Qe2 c6 20.Re1 Bd7 21.Be6 Bxd4 22.cxd4 Bxe6 23.Rxe6 Rxe6 24.Qxe6 Rc8 25.Re3 Kc7 26.Rf3 1-0
So maybe 6.Bb3 is also sufficient to gain white some advantage.
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern LadWhy 6..Qe8 and not 6..Rf8? You know the rook is going to f8, but it's not so clear that the Queen should be on e8. I don't actually like Black's play in the opening at all in that game. Also, instead of 14..Nxe5, after 14..dxe5, I would have no qualms with playing the Black side. You still haven't posted a line. I could name a bunch of openings that theory "frowns on" today, that are probably still fine, and just victims of fashion or other reasons.
Alberto David is clearly one GM who decided the Traxler wasn't up to it...(he never played it again)
Howell,J (2525) - David,A (2465) [C57]
Groningen op Groningen, 1995
1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 e5 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.0-0 Rf8 8.Nc3 d6 9.Nd5+ Kd8 10.c3 h6 11.d4 exd4 12.Nxf6 Rxf6 13.e5 Rf5 14.Nf3 Nxe5 15.Nxd4 Rf6 16.Be3 Ng4 17.Re1 Nxe3 ...[text shortened]... e6 Rc8 25.Re3 Kc7 26.Rf3 1-0
So maybe 6.Bb3 is also sufficient to gain white some advantage.
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by HurricaneConway125After 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ leads to wild complications that are probably OK for black. It's certainly what Traxler players are hoping for. I should know, I was one myself once!
Why is 5. Nxf7 such a bad continuation for white after 4...Bc5?
I usuall play Nxf7 straight after 4...d5 and have a great record with it so don't see why I really shouldn't play it after Bc5 :~
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern LadI'm doing alright in a game i'm playing at the moment after that continuation i.e. I am leading by a rook a piece and a pawn with my knight still trapped on h8
After 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ leads to wild complications that are probably OK for black. It's certainly what Traxler players are hoping for. I should know, I was one myself once!
won't post the game because it is still in progress but I will once it has finished