14 Feb 11
Originally posted by erikidoyes i think it was, the Zukertort i think has a fianchettoed queens bishop. i dont know what difference it makes, never having played either the Colle or the Zuke, perhaps someone can enlighten us 🙂
by the way, wasn't that first game you posted a zukertort? I am terrible with opening names so I am probably wrong. BUt, was just curious considering some of the other posts
14 Feb 11
2 edits
Originally posted by erikidoi dont know any games with the Colle, it just struck me as a good idea to play something solid. I have played mostly 1.e4 for about three years now 🙂 At present i am studying the Fischer v Spassky 1972 world championship games, i have just finished game seven (?) i think it was, where Fischer plays the Queens gambit, beautifully.
Okay, so do you only know the easy endgames? Or are you actually studying complex ones as well?
14 Feb 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieENDgames. You really need to read more carefully
i dont know any games with the Colle, it just struck me as a good idea to play something solid. I have played mostly 1.e4 for about three years now 🙂 At present i am studying the Fischer v Spassky 1972 world championship games, i have just finished game seven (?) i think it was, where Fischer plays the Queens gambit, beautifully.
14 Feb 11
Originally posted by National Master DaleMystery Member missed an easy win with 10 ... Qe5+ followed by Qxa1. From then on I get the feeling that both sides played for white to win 😕
I`m not knocking the Colle really .
I think one should play whatever they like.
If you do play the Colle you might be sane but would missout on wonderfull openings like this one.
This is me as white versus mystery member.
This is my definition of unorthodox.
If its book its too normal to surprise your opponent.
[pgn]1. Nb1-c3 c7-c5 2. ...[text shortened]... a5-b6 12. Ra3xb3 Qb6-c7 13. Bf1-b5 Nb8-d7 14. Nf4-d5 Qc7xc2 15. Rb3-c3 Qc2-g6 16. Nd5-f4[/pgn]🙂
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14 Feb 11
Originally posted by Bosse de NageThis is my opinion too. The Colle is fine for a while. It allows people to learn about strategy and tactics without having to memorize a lot of opening theory, which they probably don't understand anyway. But eventually you have to start playing "real" openings.
Colle system fun because give patzer room to breathe, time to understand. Then strong patzer try new options.
There are several of these kind of systems for white, including the Colle, the Stonewall reversed, and the Kings Indian reversed. They all have the same advantages (easy to learn, keeps you out of trouble in the opening, etc) and the same defects (relatively easy to equalize against, not likely to get black in trouble early on, etc.)
14 Feb 11
Reasons NOT to play the Colle
1) While you may not be able to convert an advantageous position, the practice of trying to do so is far better than attempting to convert a lifeless knight stack on e5 in the Colle.
2) You will find that you will have to do just as much work as in any other opening since your opponents have been facing the Colle since day 1 at the club level.
3) Closed openings are not the best choice of opening for improving players.
4) Learning opening takes time, and later, when your Colle phase has passed, you will rue having lost valuable months (years) when you could have been actually learning middle game plans and typical endgame positions from tournament openings.
5) You can use your supposed time gained studying endgames you will never play as you will find most of your games is a massive swap in the center leaving double rook and pawn drawn endgames.
6) Your principal opening tome will be Zuke em.
14 Feb 11
1 edit
Originally posted by nimzo5With Colle you avoid , Albin counter gambit and the Budapest Gambit as well as Nimzo Indian, Queens Indian and buckets loads of other 1.d4 opening theory, i dont think you need to learn as much as for Queens gambit, no way.
Reasons NOT to play the Colle
1) While you may not be able to convert an advantageous position, the practice of trying to do so is far better than attempting to convert a lifeless knight stack on e5 in the Colle.
2) You will find that you will have to do just as much work as in any other opening since your opponents have been facing the Colle since day ...[text shortened]... leaving double rook and pawn drawn endgames.
6) Your principal opening tome will be Zuke em.
14 Feb 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieColle is a load of codswallop, from ancient times.
With Colle you avoid , Albin counter gambit and the Budapest Gambit as well as Nimzo Indian, Queens Indian and buckets loads of other 1.d4 opening theory, i dont think you need to learn as much as for Queens gambit, no way.
Queen's gambit, even if not known by white, has so much advantage in even unknown following moves - be they logical moves.
King's is for sheep, who can't create.
Fianchetto cannot cope with white Queens G, as black fians.
My humble opinion.
-m.
14 Feb 11
1 edit
Originally posted by mikelomColle did not think so, neither did Alekhine, but what did they know!
Colle is a load of codswallop, from ancient times.
Queen's gambit, even if not known by white, has so much advantage in even unknown following moves - be they logical moves.
King's is for sheep, who can't create.
Fianchetto cannot cope with white Queens G, as black fians.
My humble opinion.
-m.
No one is disputing that the queens gambit is the best try for an advantage with white, but even against it we can play Colle with reversed colours and an easy life! so while you are busy swatting up on the Meran, we shall be focusing on the endgame and middle game and gradually we shall become better for it.
14 Feb 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhy would you want to avoid these openings? The reality is players under idk 1800 fide don't know these openings all that well anyway, and if they do then the rest of their game is weak.
With Colle you avoid , Albin counter gambit and the Budapest Gambit as well as Nimzo Indian, Queens Indian and buckets loads of other 1.d4 opening theory, i dont think you need to learn as much as for Queens gambit, no way.
If you are sick of opening theory, just play in Capablanca's style- choose solid, developing moves get castled and then pick a fight.
Playing the Colle to avoid the "prep" of club players is just silly.
14 Feb 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieJust because Alekhine played an opening in the 1930's doesn't mean it is good. Who knows, maybe Alekhine was drunk and didn't want to castle into mate.
Colle did not think so, neither did Alekhine, but what did they know! No one is disputing that the queens gambit is the best try for an advantage, but even against it we can play Colle with reversed colours and an easy life!
I wouldn't be so sure the QGD is the best try for an advantage, the reason you don't see it at the top level is because modern chess doesn't cede the initiative so easily.
Most of the methods known at the club level give no advantage for white (minority attack, botvinnik pawn center etc.) and it takes a very strong player to convert these very subtle positions.
14 Feb 11
2 edits
Originally posted by nimzo5Its not just these openings, i remember on the forum one excellent players stating that with white he has to know roughly about eighteen different systems against his 1.d4. We want to get a playable game and avoid all of that theory. If there is such an opening as you suggest then please tell us the details, i would love to study Capas games but the book i have, chess fundamentals is in descriptive notation, which i always end up getting lost in.
Why would you want to avoid these openings? The reality is players under idk 1800 fide don't know these openings all that well anyway, and if they do then the rest of their game is weak.
If you are sick of opening theory, just play in Capablanca's style- choose solid, developing moves get castled and then pick a fight.
Playing the Colle to avoid the "prep" of club players is just silly.
Nimzo i have injured my back and cannot sit upright for long, will reply later 🙂
14 Feb 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobie11.national pride(if you're Belgian)
1. Its easy
2. You will never get hijacked in the opening again
3. You will never need to learn another opening for white ever again
4. You will have more time to spend on the middlegame
5. You will have more time to spend on the endgame
6. You will save a fortune on Sicilian opening books which dont make any sense
7. Colle was a master who kne ...[text shortened]... ease dont try its boring, getting demolished by some Sicilian geek is not that much fun either.
toet.