23 Mar 04
Originally posted by BarefootChessPlayerIn Los Angeles we have some "tar pits" that are commonly referred to as "The La Brea Tar Pits". Since La Brea means "the tar", the common reference translates to "the the tar tar pits".
"rsvp" is french for "repondez s'il vous plai[circumflex]t" and is translated as 'please reply" though the literal meaning is "reply if it pleases you". "please rsvp" is thus "please please reply"
23 Mar 04
1 edit
Originally posted by rgoudieno, that's a preference also.
Is the complete lack of any capitalization a misuse? 😉
-Ray.
for years, i was forced to write in upper case only because that was all that computers knew. i found this odious, and decided that, when lower case became available, i would use it and nothing else except when upper case was absolutely necessary.
i even sign documents in lower case.
in "formal" writing, i uppercase correctly.
23 Mar 04
I find it interesting how some words and constructions which were once the only correct option are now seen as old-fashioned or 'posh'.
I've already mentioned 'will' and 'shall' and someone else mentioned that 'whom' seems to be dying out, notwithstanding the Not the Nine O'Clock News sketch. Another word that's frowned upon these days is 'one' when used as a personal pronoun: "One must always be prepared to consider points-of-view other than one's own." If used to mean 'I', this is rightly seen as rather arrogant: it suggests that your actions somehow determine the actions of people in general. But these days you get funny looks from some quarters if you use 'one' to mean a singular form of 'people in general', where it was previously the standard word to use, and still is in formal writing. For some reason the preferred alternative these days is 'you'.
23 Mar 04
Originally posted by ddebenedClassic example of redundancy: look at all the words beginning with 'al' in English, eg alcohol, alcove, algebra. Firstly, many of these words come from Arabic, and in this case, the 'al' means 'the' (so Allah is 'the God'😉. So why don't we just drop the 'al'?
In Los Angeles we have some "tar pits" that are commonly referred to as "The La Brea Tar Pits". Since La Brea means "the tar", the common reference translates to "the the tar tar pits".
Also, double plurals: the most common seems to be 'agendas', but you also see some others like 'cherubims' from time to time. There are other plural words which many people think are singular (off the top of my head: media, phenomena, criteria, data, dice) but thankfully most of them don't tend to get 's's added onto them.
About pluralising abbreviations: I'd say it's fine to make a plural of an abbreviation by adding 's', even if the 's' wouldn't appear at the end if the expression was written out in full, as abbreviations generally behave as words in their own right. So as far as I'm concerned writing 'WMDs', 'IOUs', 'BFGs' (Black Forest Gateaux) or 'USAs' (eg if you're talking about several different countries in parallel universes, all called USA) is fine. Similarly, I'd allow 'FAQs', even though the plural is usually implied by 'FAQ', as simply a different way of abbreviating the words 'Frequently Asked Questions'.
Another example of abbreviations behaving as ordinary words is in the use of 'a' and 'an': do you talk about a MP, or an MP? Even more confusing, is it a LAN party, or an LAN party?
23 Mar 04
2 edits
Originally posted by Acolyte [parts omitted]it has become increasingly common to hear such nonsense as "bacteria is" or "criteria was" because few people talk about one bacterium or a single criterion. the one i dislike hearing, though it is corect in some contexts, is "data" used as a singular noun. again, who talks about one datum? it is acceptable in the same context as "information" which is used the same way.
Also, double plurals: the most common seems to be 'agendas', but you also see some others like 'cherubims' from time to time.: ... a MP or an MP? Even more confusing, is it a LAN party, or an LAN party?
for the plural of abbreviations, "iou" ("i owe you", just like "oic" for "oh, i see" ) is okay, but the rest seem silly.
as far as what article to use before an abbreviation, if it is an acronym (and thus said as a word), "a" before a consonant is correct because one is saying it as a word (e. g., a lan connection, a radar installation, a fat (file allocation table) entry, or a ram disc), but things like "mp", "fbi", "rpg", "swm", "nbc", or even "rhp", which are not pronounceable as words, use "an" since the first letter begins with a vowel (the letters in english whose names begin with a vowel are: a (aie), e, f (ef), h (aitch), i (eye), l (ell), m (em), n (en), o, r (ar[e]), s (ess), and x (ex)--odd that "u", a vowel, does not begin with a vowel sound, so "a usb port"!).
one exception is "suv", which is pronounceable as a word, but no one does so; one refers to this monstrosity as "an ess-you-vee".
ah, english--the language with the most exceptions of all! *g*
23 Mar 04
Originally posted by BarefootChessPlayerIndeed!
ah, english--the language with the most exceptions of all! *g*
I don't know how many other languages would possess a variation of this old riddle:
How can you argue that the sequence of letters ghoti may be pronounced as fish?
Further, consider the word woman. To form the plural, the a is replaced with an e to form women. Why, then, is it the first syllable that changes in pronunciation?
-Ray.
24 Mar 04
3 edits
Originally posted by rgoudiegh as in "tough" or "laugh"; o as in "women"; ti as in anything ending in "tion".
I don't know how many other languages would possess a variation of this old riddle:
How can you argue that the sequence of letters ghoti may be pronounced as fish?
Further, consider the word woman/women ... why is it the first syllable that changes in pronunciation?
i once saw something called "why english is so hard to learn" dealing with homographs such as "wind" (long or short i depending on context), "trough" (usually rhyming with "off" unless you are a baker, in which case it rhymes with "toe" ), "read" (long or short e depending on tense). and dozens of others.
while many other languages have words that are spelled and pronounced the same but mean different things, english is the only one i know of with words that are spelled alike but [/i]pronounced[/i] differently.
another example is "fair". how do you interpret "she's a fair person" by itself? you can't! is she (a) light-skinned, (b) blonde, (c) "playing by the rules", or (d) able to view a situation with no bias? similarly, take "she's a fair judge". it is logical to assume that this means she is unbiased, but it might also mean she rates something at a fair (a type of expositon).
"file" is a lesser example of this. it could be one or more pieces of paper, a folder containing a number of pieces of paper, a container for discarded papers and similar things, a collection of ones and zeroes, a line, a group of squares, or a tool used in abrading.
i think that's enough for now.
25 Mar 04
All of this stemmed from one simple question. I love the way this forum works.
Here's a small challenge for any who care to take it up: create a logical setence/paragraph/story (how ever far you decide to go with it) using only homophones and homographs. The only exception to this being the use of articles (since it would be rather difficult to write a paragraph without them) and verbs that are neither homophones nor homographs. I'd like to see what you guys can come up with.
Have fun!
25 Mar 04
Originally posted by AcolyteMy favorite redundancy is ''chain mail''. Maille is the French word for chain, so apparently people who weave wire call their craft ''chain chain'' to distinguish it from some other type of chain.
Classic example of redundancy: look at all the words beginning with 'al' in English, eg alcohol, alcove, algebra. Firstly, many of these words come from Arabic, and in this case, the 'al' means 'the' (so Allah is 'the God'😉. So why don't we just drop the 'al'?
Also, double plurals: the most common seems to be 'agendas', but you also see som ...[text shortened]... n': do you talk about a MP, or an MP? Even more confusing, is it a LAN party, or an LAN party?
25 Mar 04
Originally posted by econundrumok, i'll begin with a sentence:
All of this stemmed from one simple question. I love the way this forum works.
Here's a small challenge for any who care to take it up: create a logical setence/paragraph/story (how ever far you decide to go with it) using only homophones and homographs. The only exception to this being the use of articles (since it would be rather difficult to write ...[text shortened]... bs that are neither homophones nor homographs. I'd like to see what you guys can come up with.
eye wood knot bee hear butt four the bares' presents.
i know--doesn't make much sense (maybe i'm hunting bears, or maybe it's the name of a team), and the last word could remain as that or change to "presence" and still have meaning, but it's a start!
25 Mar 04
Originally posted by BarefootChessPlayerTo those who think English has too many homonyms, and complain that its pronunciation is only erratically linked to spelling: try learning Chinese.
gh as in "tough" or "laugh"; o as in "women"; ti as in anything ending in "tion".
i once saw something called "why english is so hard to learn" dealing with homographs such as "wind" (long or short i depending on context), "trough" (usually rhyming with "off" unless you are a baker, in which case it ...[text shortened]... zeroes, a line, a group of squares, or a tool used in abrading.
i think that's enough for now.
25 Mar 04
1 edit
Originally posted by Acolytewhile i am not familiar with the aspects of chinese (mandarin, i preseume you mean), i know that it's a "character" representation so that many words have one symbol.
To those who think English has too many homonyms, and complain that its pronunciation is only erratically linked to spelling: try learning Chinese.
i was not aware of the existence of a wide variation in symbolization, definition, or prounciation for the same word--everything has one meaning.
i would presume that the same applies to most other languages which do not use an "alphabet" but rather "character representations".
am i way off base hee? can anyone else shed some insight on this?
26 Mar 04
Originally posted by BarefootChessPlayerNot quite what I meant, but interesting and rather humorous. I meant that you should make a sentence/paragraph/story using the homophones and homographs correctly. I have to say though that the way you did it was pretty cool.
ok, i'll begin with a sentence:
eye wood knot bee hear butt four the bares' presents.
i know--doesn't make much sense (maybe i'm hunting bears, or maybe it's the name of a team), and the last word could remain as that or change to "presence" and still have meaning, but it's a start!
26 Mar 04
Originally posted by econundrumok, i get it.
Not quite what I meant, but interesting and rather humorous. I meant that you should make a sentence/paragraph/story using the homophones and homographs correctly. I have to say though that the way you did it was pretty cool.
one question:
are proper names allowed (such as "kant" for "can't" or "kann" (the caro-kann guy) for "can" )?
i'll work on a paragraph or more as i get time.
26 Mar 04
Originally posted by BarefootChessPlayerAs long as the name is realistic. Don't go making up names that sound like words, nor should you alter the way a name is pronounced in order to make it sound like a particular word (I have never heard of a "kant," but "kann" is certainly acceptable).
ok, i get it.
one question:
are proper names allowed (such as "kant" for "can't" or "kann" (the caro-kann guy) for "can" )?
i'll work on a paragraph or more as i get time.