14 Jun 19
@sonhouse saidYou have no idea what goes on between God and those that belong to Him. You never will either as you automatically reject anything remotely connected to God.
TRUTH? When was the last time your god talked to you directly?
Religion is in the eye of the beholder, nothing more.
14 Jun 19
@KellyJay
Sure, when HUMANS tell me all about your gods. Don't forget, your religion is not the only 'god' floating around. Of course your stance is OUR god is the only TRUE god and all those other gods are fake or from the Devil.
Funny part about that is those other religions think THEIR god is the only TRUE god and YOUR god is the fake one.
You don't see a problem with that of course since only YOUR god is real and all the others are fake and man made.
You would never in a million years even consider the idea ALL of those so-called gods are made up by humans who NEED the warm fuzzy feeling of someone having their backs even though nothing like that is going on for real,
14 Jun 19
1 edit
@sonhouse saidNo need to look for something I have already found, no need to search for anything that answers my questions when I have it.
@KellyJay
Sure, when HUMANS tell me all about your gods. Don't forget, your religion is not the only 'god' floating around. Of course your stance is OUR god is the only TRUE god and all those other gods are fake or from the Devil.
Funny part about that is those other religions think THEIR god is the only TRUE god and YOUR god is the fake one.
You don't see a problem wit ...[text shortened]... warm fuzzy feeling of someone having their backs even though nothing like that is going on for real,
You keep telling me about your hopes that someday science will answer your questions, I already have that.
14 Jun 19
@kellyjay saidYou have a fantasy that will remain a fantasy because being religious MEANS you can never change your stance. For you GODIDIT, yesterday you believed it, today you believe it, and in 20 years you will still believe it no matter WHAT science turns up in the meantime.
No need to look for something I have already found, no need to search for anything that answers my questions when I have it.
You keep telling me about your hopes that someday science will answer your questions, I already have that.
I think humanity will be held down by religion till they chuck the shackles of dead religion and begin to think for themselves. I guess for you that would be a day in hell.
14 Jun 19
1 edit
@sonhouse saidI believe in God, no problem saying that, it isn't a fantasy. You keep making claims about what science will find, discover, uncover, pick a term. It is as if you know what the future holds (you don't), and if it doesn't find anything new in 20 years from now, you will be doing the same.
You have a fantasy that will remain a fantasy because being religious MEANS you can never change your stance. For you GODIDIT, yesterday you believed it, today you believe it, and in 20 years you will still believe it no matter WHAT science turns up in the meantime.
I think humanity will be held down by religion till they chuck the shackles of dead religion and begin to think for themselves. I guess for you that would be a day in hell.
Don't forget you are not putting your faith in science, only those that do science that believe as you do. That filter will keep you from ever seeing anything other than what you want to see. Reminds me of those in religion that only want to hear from people that teach them what they want to hear, not what could be an uncomfortable truth, they want their ears itched as you.
I'll listen to any argument, if truth cannot stand up to questions, is it really truth?
You are not completely seeking only those that tell you what you want to hear, I give you major kudos for watching the lectures you did. That alone by far is much more than some of the other posters that popped into this discussion could manage, I admire you for that!
@kellyjay saidOk, thanks for that. It's just in the field of religion each one says THEY are the only true religion and when folks outside that looks at it they see hypocrisy or downright lying.
I believe in God, no problem saying that, it isn't a fantasy. You keep making claims about what science will find, discover, uncover, pick a term. It is as if you know what the future holds (you don't), and if it doesn't find anything new in 20 years from now, you will be doing the same.
Don't forget you are not putting your faith in science, only those that do science th ...[text shortened]... than some of the other posters that popped into this discussion could manage, I admire you for that!
You swear YOUR religion is the only true one yet other religions say THEY are the true religion.
So to rationalize that bit, you will bring up,' God gave us free will' which I would say BS.
Which god would that be that gave us this free will religionists talk about? Hindu gods? Rastafarians? Scientologists?
You would have ZERO problem denouncing all those religions as false, from the devil or some such which does not sound very spiritual to me. A real god looking at that attitude would just scratch it's rhetorical head and go Maybe it's time to lay down the law, not let there be 2300 religions floating around the planet.
But of course that would never happen and you would rationalize that lack on interaction as another example of free will, you know SO much about these alleged gods, they would never break the hard fast rule of free will.
Also, BTW, on a side note, science has now proven the Noah flood tale would never work because trying to make a new population of animals and people from 2 to 8 or so won't work genetically, they would be doomed to extinction.
That is where I say science WILL show real answers and that is one that just came in very recently.
It is hard to see why the Noah myth ever made it to the bible except for one thing: They WANT stories that engender fear in their congregation. Without fear, a religion is doomed to failure.
The very idea that a god who allegedly made Earth, the universe, all life and such on Earth would go about killing all land animals on Earth just to off some nasty human tribe is so ridiculous as to not even be worthy of repeating much less being made a central tenet of religion.
They totally ignore the idea if there was a god so powerful as they say, there would not be such a dramatic BS tale to off a nasty tribe of humans since clearly such a god could just wave it's rhetorical hand and poop, no more nasty tribe, no need for a world wide flood and all the rest of the BS in that tale.
Why do you believe in the literal about that bogus tale?
Also, what about the idea of free will? Where is the free will in THAT tale? Doesn't sound even remotely like free will going on there.
16 Jun 19
@sonhouse saidI agree with much of what you are saying even here! There are a lot of different religions, even in Christianity there are so many various versions it is mind numbing. There is so much hypocrisy and downright lying as well. People are making money off of religion, they do this by telling people what they want to hear or scaring them by claiming this, that, or the other thing. I think religion sucks, it is a poison that helps put chains on ourselves, but that isn't where the truth of it all resides, it just covers up the truth in a mountain of man's lies, making it a circus like spectacle many times over.
Ok, thanks for that. It's just in the field of religion each one says THEY are the only true religion and when folks outside that looks at it they see hypocrisy or downright lying.
You swear YOUR religion is the only true one yet other religions say THEY are the true religion.
So to rationalize that bit, you will bring up,' God gave us free will' which I would say BS. ...[text shortened]... ill? Where is the free will in THAT tale? Doesn't sound even remotely like free will going on there.
I don’t think reality could be reality without 'Free will", it had to be built into creation. Our ability to say no has to be unquestionably valid, our ability to say yes to good or evil has to be our choice! The consequences of living outside of God’s Kingdom had to be a valid choice as much as living in it. If forced, the reality of choice due to our will disappears.
Do you believe man is a product of material evolution only, doesn't that take away all choices, you evolved to be what you are you have no choice in the matter?
16 Jun 19
@KellyJay
What chance do we have of wiping out the genes proven to be inside all of us from Neandertals? Or is that something you can't accept since that would go against the 6000 year old Earth? All of us have Neandertal genes, except for most Africans. Now we find genes proven to be from yet another early human variant, Denosovans, it seems we bred with them also. These are events from a hundred thousand years ago to maybe 30,000 years ago.
16 Jun 19
1 edit
@sonhouse saidIf we are programmed by natural processes, you think we can program ourselves to do what we want? Water doesn't rise above it's source, you think if evolution is true that we all come from a common lifeform, we can rise above our programming, by what human ID?
@KellyJay
What chance do we have of wiping out the genes proven to be inside all of us from Neandertals? Or is that something you can't accept since that would go against the 6000 year old Earth? All of us have Neandertal genes, except for most Africans. Now we find genes proven to be from yet another early human variant, Denosovans, it seems we bred with them also. These are events from a hundred thousand years ago to maybe 30,000 years ago.
17 Jun 19
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@kellyjay saidWe have already raised ourselves if you haven't noticed. Take a look at where we were in the year1019 Verses 2019. You have to agree it is our own science of medicine and nutrition, we have gone from a lifespan of maybe 40 years to more like 80 on average.
If we are programmed by natural processes, you think we can program ourselves to do what we want? Water doesn't rise above it's source, you think if evolution is true that we all come from a common lifeform, we can rise above our programming, by what human ID?
That was not from the intersession of a god that was from hard work of generations of scientists and in some regards like I said, we are still in kindergarten.
I say we will learn more every year because that is what has been going on for the past 300 hundred years and there is nothing in the cards to stop that unless climage change or nuclear war dampens the progress of science, which is totally possible. Other than that, we will continue to learn and to improve the human condition. That is not faith, that is what we have already accomplished and a world of genius working in all directions of science daily.
If you read sites like Phys.org you will see the daily progress in every science.
There are a dozen such sites and sites at just about every university teeming with research. That is not faith, that is seeing science in action, the science I grew up with, the science I participated in, like Apollo, even though I had a menial job there I saw the grandeur of that work, a work much more complex than the Manhattan project. I saw the beginnings of computers I actually worked on at Goddard Space Flight center during my Apollo days, where I was told they wanted me to play with the mainframes for 2 hours a day to show usage so they wouldn't use them.
Computers with a thousand times less power than a cell phone and no monitor, no keyboard, no hard drives and to enter data you had to switch 16 switches representing 2 bytes and hit the Enter key for that one word, do that a few thousand times and send that to a paper punch machine that generated a program.
I learned to program an ANALOG computer, with a wire point solder board with 1728 contacts , where a week worth of soldering by me was a program that allowed in the one case I remember, to simulate a satellite as this big cylinder with weights around the perifery and spinning, was it stable or did it start to precess around wildly. Something they can simulate on a cell phone now and so I have seen the progress already happening and see progress going on every day. I don't need faith for that, all I have to do is check out phys.org and see new science in action every single day.
Check out that site, there are articles about just about every brand of science, astronomy, physics, cosmology, organic chemistry, geology, EVERYTHING in science as we know it today and learning every day also.
17 Jun 19
@sonhouse saidNo, if we are products of materialist evolution, than everything that is us, has been programmed into us, there would be no outside forces independent from natural causes or internal ones free of what has been programmed into us.
We have already raised ourselves if you haven't noticed. Take a look at where we were in the year1019 Verses 2019. You have to agree it is our own science of medicine and nutrition, we have gone from a lifespan of maybe 40 years to more like 80 on average.
That was not from the intersession of a god that was from hard work of generations of scientists and in some regards ...[text shortened]... , organic chemistry, geology, EVERYTHING in science as we know it today and learning every day also.
You cannot write code for a chess program and it do anything other than what it was written for. If a program was written and it became buggy, it breaks down, becoming useless, it doesn't over time become ego centric maniac bent on world domination no matter what the movies suggest (TRON).
What is there, can only work with what is there, you are not free just programmed to do what you will from your likes to your dislikes. If you were created for more, then that is another set of boundaries.
17 Jun 19
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@KellyJay
That's all well and good but for the one million years plus humans or near humans have been around. If we were programmed to advance scientifically, it should have happened ten thousand years ago or 100,000 years ago when humans with modern brains started showing up.
There was basically learning say about nutritional value of plants back a million years ago and the way they learned was they didn't get sick and the bad stuff made them sick or they died. We learned a long time ago to make an effective glue to hold spears and such together but it stayed that way for tens of thousands of years.
Only in the past 400 maybe 500 years ago did we start getting serious about gaining knowledge and in the 20th century that knowledge started exploding with projects like the Manhattan and Apollo projects.
If we were programmed then why would it take tens of thousands of years to get serious about knowledge?
Free will sure isn't instilled in animals, they go into heat, they screw, they have babies, which grow up and when they get in heat they screw and have babies, no nonsense about birth control or any of that, they are preprogrammed with only instinct to go by.
Humans have had this so called free will for a hundred thousand years maybe more.
Individually we suck at defense, like a hundred thousand years ago, humans with modern brains get attacked by the then equivalent of a mountain lion, one on one, mountain lion 1, human 0, and thanks for the lunch...
But with a tribe of humans against the same beast, we coordinate attacks and defense, big jump from instinct. But it didn't lead to our modern world for literally 100,000 years of there being humans with brains just as smart as ours.
17 Jun 19
3 edits
@sonhouse saidI don't know how you arrive at your conclusions about what should have happen when, do you have some insight into all the how and whys in a non-guided process as natural section can input science into anything? Modern brains are just the hardware of our physical bodies, having a great brain doesn't do anything for us by itself!
@KellyJay
That's all well and good but for the one million years plus humans or near humans have been around. If we were programmed to advance scientifically, it should have happened ten thousand years ago or 100,000 years ago when humans with modern brains started showing up.
There was basically learning say about nutritional value of plants back a million years ago an ...[text shortened]... ur modern world for literally 100,000 years of there being humans with brains just as smart as ours.
You should know that hardware is always before software, the abilities to use the brain's functions to the fullest wouldn't just happen with the arrival of a brain, any more than the operating system we use to operate our computers would automatically show up without someone writing the code for it.
Getting knowledge is a keen thing to ponder, if it was instilled into animals how was that done, surely not by design according to you? We are still just speaking about chemical reactions in the formation of life are we not? Odd you bring up two sexes too, from early life that I guess grew into a lifeforms that had split into two sexes through chemical reactions, how would they know what to do to make babies? Did someone program that into them, so acquiring a brain which can immediately grasp knowledge, and getting the need, desire, and know how for sex without a designer is a grand mystery isn't it? How long do you suppose it took for some lifeforms to figure that out, couldn't have been to long if true, they all would died off without offspring.
18 Jun 19
@kellyjay saidThe point is, even humans with modern brains 100,000 years ago, it took till just a few hundred years ago to start science. Tens of thousands of years went by with not much in the way of technology change, somewhat better stone tools and such but that is about all then in a sudden rush, it all comes together as we see it today.
I don't know how you arrive at your conclusions about what should have happen when, do you have some insight into all the how and whys in a non-guided process as natural section can input science into anything? Modern brains are just the hardware of our physical bodies, having a great brain doesn't do anything for us by itself!
You should know that hardware is always befo ...[text shortened]... s to figure that out, couldn't have been to long if true, they all would died off without offspring.
We should have walked on the moon 20,000 years ago.