29 Sep 10
Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“...So animals should pay with their lives on the predilection of your gut? ...”
I myself am a vegetarian but I still think this is a rather harsh comment.
There are several very good reasons to be vegetarian but the main one for me it that it leaves a much lower carbon footprint. If we all become at least almost vegetarian ( but allowing a few e ...[text shortened]... urces just as I don't think shooting your own foot is 'immoral' but rather merely foolish.
But I don't think this is at all a 'moral' issue but rather merely an issue of sustainable and sensible management of resources
"There's the rub." What gives humans the right to treat animals like a resource?
I don't think shooting your own foot is 'immoral' but rather merely foolish.
I don't understand your analogy. Could you explain further?
30 Sep 10
Originally posted by Green PaladinSome animals pay with their lives as they are eaten by other animals, it is the
So animals should pay with their lives on the predilection of your gut?
As a fundamentalist Christian I would have expected you to yearn for the age before the Fall when humans lived in god's grace, subsisting entirely on a vegetarian diet. Or would you, like most Christians, rather sit around watching the planet hurtle towards oblivion while you wait for the Rapture?
way of things. There are more than a few life forms on this planet that eats
animals, they are quite tasty and I like eating them. As a fundametal Christian
I thank God for all my meals those that do and those that do not have meat in
them. Not sure how you go from my eating a hamburger to the planet that
is hurtling towards oblivion, should I be afraid to ask? I'm looking for to the
Rapture, yes.
Kelly
30 Sep 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Green Paladin“...."There's the rub." What gives humans the right to treat animals like a resource? ...”But I don't think this is at all a 'moral' issue but rather merely an issue of sustainable and sensible management of resources
"There's the rub." What gives humans the right to treat animals like a resource?
I don't think shooting your own foot is 'immoral' but rather merely foolish.
I don't understand your analogy. Could you explain further?
I don't think there is such think as “rights”. I like kindness and fair treatment to all but that does not mean I should believe in vague concepts such as moral “rights”.
“...I don't understand your analogy. Could you explain further? ...”
Eating meat in an unsustainable way is not 'immoral' but merely foolish -I already basically said this in a round-about way.
30 Sep 10
Originally posted by KellyJay“...Not sure how you go from my eating a hamburger to the planet that
Some animals pay with their lives as they are eaten by other animals, it is the
way of things. There are more than a few life forms on this planet that eats
animals, they are quite tasty and I like eating them. As a fundametal Christian
I thank God for all my meals those that do and those that do not have meat in
them. Not sure how you go from my eating ...[text shortened]... tling towards oblivion, should I be afraid to ask? I'm looking for to the
Rapture, yes.
Kelly
is hurtling towards oblivion, ...”
To say it would make our planet “hurtling towards oblivion” would no doubt be an exaggeration. -our planet's orbit around the sun is secure.
But going veterinarian would reduce the pressure on our dangerously strained limited resources. In particular, going veterinarian would reduce our carbon footprint ( by about 8% ) ;
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=hp&biw=1016&bih=428&q=Meat+carbon+footprint+vegetarian+&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=139dcfed95330b5b
“...the meat and dairy industry accounts for 8 per cent of UK carbon emissions...”
http://imparo.wordpress.com/2007/07/19/vegetarianism-vs-meat-eating-and-global-warming/
“...If you switch to vegetarianism, you can shrink your carbon footprint by up to 1.5 tons of carbon dioxide a year ...”
It would also lead to more efficient use of our limited land resources resulting in more food being, on average, produced per farmed hector; this would reduce the risk of famine in the third world.
30 Sep 10
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonLOL, okay
“...Not sure how you go from my eating a hamburger to the planet that
is hurtling towards oblivion, ...”
To say it would make our planet “hurtling towards oblivion” would no doubt be an exaggeration. -our planet's orbit around the sun is secure.
But going veterinarian would reduce the pressure on our dangerously strained limited resources. In p ...[text shortened]... n average, produced per farmed hector; this would reduce the risk of famine in the third world.
Kelly
01 Oct 10
Originally posted by KellyJay
Some animals pay with their lives as they are eaten by other animals, it is the
way of things. There are more than a few life forms on this planet that eats
animals, they are quite tasty and I like eating them. As a fundametal Christian
I thank God for all my meals those that do and those that do not have meat in
them. Not sure how you go from my eating ...[text shortened]... tling towards oblivion, should I be afraid to ask? I'm looking for to the
Rapture, yes.
Kelly
Some animals pay with their lives as they are eaten by other animals, it is the way of things.
Some creatures are carnivorous; we, however, are not. If you want to compare humans to carnivores then you should extend the analogy to its logical conclusion:
"And if you insist it is your nature to eat such food, do you yourself then kill first what you want to eat? Do it yourself without the help of a chopping knife, club, or axe, but as wolves, bears, and lions do, who kill for themselves all they devour. Bite an ox to pieces with your teeth, or a pig with your jaws. Tear a lamb or a hare to shreds and eat it quickly, still alive as they do. If you wait until the dying animal is quite dead and are ashamed to enjoy the flesh while the spirit is still in it, why, against Nature, see food at all in a living thing? Actually, no one wants to eat even a dead and lifeless thing as it is, but they boil it and roast it and transform it with heat and sauces, changing and altering and smothering the taste of gore with thousands of sweet spices, so that the palate being thus deceived, may accept this uncongenial fare..."
Plutarch (AD 46-120)
02 Oct 10
Originally posted by Green PaladinI like eating meat, I like eating plants, the fact that I don't pull the plants out ofSome animals pay with their lives as they are eaten by other animals, it is the way of things.
Some creatures are carnivorous; we, however, are not. If you want to compare humans to carnivores then you should extend the analogy to its logical conclusion:
"And if you insist it is your nature to eat such food, do you yourself then kill ...[text shortened]... the palate being thus deceived, may accept this uncongenial fare..."
Plutarch (AD 46-120)
the ground to eat them or eat meat that I kill does not change that fact. I am
being true to my nature, as a lion is when it does by nature eat other creatures.
You telling me I'm somehow supposed to be required to eat creatures I kill is
a joke, do I need to grow wings to fly instead of riding an airplane, do I need to
grow fins and gills instead of putting on scuba equipment for swimming under
water? Get real, there is no reason I cannot thank God for what I eat and enjoy
it while I do. You want to elevate animals to something other than food or pets
is completely up to you, but don’t try and push that on me. I’ll respect your
beliefs I expect the same treatment from you.
Kelly
02 Oct 10
Originally posted by KellyJay
I like eating meat, I like eating plants, the fact that I don't pull the plants out of
the ground to eat them or eat meat that I kill does not change that fact. I am
being true to my nature, as a lion is when it does by nature eat other creatures.
You telling me I'm somehow supposed to be required to eat creatures I kill is
a joke, do I need to grow win ...[text shortened]... y and push that on me. I’ll respect your
beliefs I expect the same treatment from you.
Kelly
I like eating meat, I like eating plants, the fact that I don't pull the plants out of the ground to eat them or eat meat that I kill does not change that fact
Plutarch's point was not that you should actually kill the animals you eat but rather a thought experiment. (Although I do think you should [at least once] despatch an animal in the method he prescribes). Most people would feel a touch squeamish to "f[a]ll on [an animal's] neck with a scream" yet they are quite happy to appeal to Nature where this happens. Lions don't "transform [their food] with heat and sauces".
You telling me I'm somehow supposed to be required to eat creatures I kill is a joke, do I need to grow wings to fly instead of riding an airplane, do I need to grow fins and gills instead of putting on scuba equipment for swimming under water?
This is a failed analogy: Kelly is to butcher/hunter as Kelly is to fish/bird. In the first case it is quite possible that you could be a butcher or hunter while in the latter it is impossible.
Get real, there is no reason I cannot thank God for what I eat and enjoy it while I do.
Just remember to add a postscript thanking god for "shuffl[ing you] off this mortal coil" that much more quickly: a vegetarian diet is considerably more healthy for you than a meat-based diet. Americans, who make up 4.5% of the global population, consumed 22% of all animals killed for food in 2000. In fact, 45 billion animals were slaughtered wordwide in that year! It's no wonder that 3 out of 4 American adults are overweight or obese.
http://www.upc-online.org/slaughter/2000slaughter_stats.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States
You want to elevate animals to something other than food or pets is completely up to you, but don’t try and push that on me. I’ll respect your beliefs I expect the same treatment from you.
Yes, I want to "elevate" animals like women and black people have been "elevated".
The problem is your beliefs and millions of others who share your beliefs make up western society through the Abrahamic worldview. Your beliefs and the myth of the natural are the "hand of tyranny" that legitimise the destruction and suffering of billions of animals every year.
02 Oct 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FabianFnas“...If they taste good, then they're meant to be eaten....”
And here KellyJay is completely right.
If they taste good, then they're meant to be eaten.
Religiously speaking - if god didn't want us to eat animals, then he wouldn't make them taste so good.
I hope I don't taste good 🙁
Did I mention how tough, skinny and salty I am?
02 Oct 10
Originally posted by Green PaladinI've killed animals I've eaten, it just is not a common practice of mine. Lions doI like eating meat, I like eating plants, the fact that I don't pull the plants out of the ground to eat them or eat meat that I kill does not change that fact
Plutarch's point was not that you should actually kill the animals you eat but rather a thought experiment. (Although I do think you should [at least once] despatch an ani ...[text shortened]... at legitimise the destruction and suffering of billions of animals every year.
not use pepper, salt, mustard and so on and that is part of your agrument, okay
moving on. My analogy wasn't failed, I only used it when someone said I if I was
going to use a lion as an example I had to kill what I ate because that was what
lions did. You are still more than welcome to live you life as a vegetarian, don't
care how you do it, but you are no more or less "righteous" for being one as the
guy ordering a double cheese burger and eating it. You want to elevate animals
to that of people, what about insects, what about fish, what about germs, all sorts
of life on the planet why stop with what we call animals?
Kelly
02 Oct 10
Originally posted by KellyJay
I've killed animals I've eaten, it just is not a common practice of mine. Lions do
not use pepper, salt, mustard and so on and that is part of your agrument, okay
moving on. My analogy wasn't failed, I only used it when someone said I if I was
going to use a lion as an example I had to kill what I ate because that was what
lions did. You are still more ...[text shortened]... t about germs, all sorts
of life on the planet why stop with what we call animals?
Kelly
I've killed animals I've eaten, it just is not a common practice of mine.
Did you also rend them limb from limb with your bare hands and teeth before eating them raw? Plutarch showed that those who wish to invoke nature should follow through by eating animals as they are eaten in nature. Only in this way can your position remain consistent.
My analogy wasn't failed, I only used it when someone said I if I was going to use a lion as an example I had to kill what I ate because that was what lions did.
Your analogy did fail for the reason I gave above.
You are still more than welcome to live you life as a vegetarian, don't care how you do it, but you are no more or less "righteous" for being one as the guy ordering a double cheese burger and eating it.
If you cared about animals you would try to reduce their suffering. At least forgo meat on Mondays for your own health.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meatless_Monday
You want to elevate animals to that of people, what about insects, what about fish, what about germs, all sorts of life on the planet why stop with what we call animals?
Animals cannot be "elevated" any more than women or black people were "elevated" during their liberation movements. Rather, people came to realise that their attitudes to these groups were discriminatory. I've already aligned myself with Bentham and Singer: "Can they suffer?"