08 Mar 12
Originally posted by humyThe information is duplicated by the reproduction process by the encoded
“...I did not see anything indicating it was a religious website ...”
Are you stupid? the video clearly is a religious propaganda video.
“... "You
are not thinking, if you believe this happens by accident." ...”
Nobody who understands evolution believes it “happens by accident.". It is you who are not thinking.
In the video, he first making a big ...[text shortened]... e man is CLEARLY totally STUPID and is talking nothing but total CRAP throughout that video.
information in the DNA. A mutation is when something goes wrong with
the reproduction process and information is usually lost or, in rare cases,
distorted. There is no creating of new information only slight modification
of the old information put in the creature by God in His extremely complex
program that modern programmers have learned from and are using in part
in their programs today. Throughout the history of science, man has learned
from the study of God's creations, yet many today do not honor God as the
Creator.
What he is referring to that evolutionists think happen by accident is the
informaton code in all creatures that is necessary for reproduction of a
duplicate creature. You ignore what he is actually saying and imagine
something entirely different. Since the DNA code must conform to certain
rules, the possibility of one creature evolving into another is nile.
The fact that he is not a mathematical genius or an expert in computer
programming does not indicate he is stupid and does not understand the
general concept. It is you that seem stupid for me to have to explain to you
what he was actually saying.
08 Mar 12
Originally posted by RJHindsExplain Down Syndrome then, how is that extra chromosome not 'new information'?
The information is duplicated by the reproduction process by the encoded
information in the DNA. A mutation is when something goes wrong with
the reproduction process and information is usually lost or, in rare cases,
distorted. There is no creating of new information only slight modification
of the old information put in the creature by God in His ext ...[text shortened]... ept. It is you that seem stupid for me to have to explain to you
what he was actually saying.
08 Mar 12
Originally posted by Proper KnobWhat causes Down syndrome?
Explain Down Syndrome then, how is that extra chromosome not 'new information'?
Down syndrome occurs because of an abnormality characterized by an extra copy of genetic material on all or part of the 21st chromosome. Every cell in the body contains genes that are grouped along chromosomes in the cell's nucleus or center. There are normally 46 chromosomes in each cell, 23 inherited from your mother and 23 from your father. When some or all of a person's cells have an extra full or partial copy of chromosome 21, the result is Down syndrome.
Down syndrome is a chromosomal disorder caused by an error in cell division that results in an extra 21st chromosome. The condition leads to impairments in both cognitive ability and physical growth that range from mild to moderate developmental disabilities.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/145554.php
Doesn't this make it clear to you that there is no new information and that it is only
duplication of the same information that was already there. Evolution requires by its
definiton, unless you changed the definition again, that there be at least some benefit.
This error in the reproduction process causes harm with no benefit. Clearly this is
not what I understand to represent anything close to an evolutionary process.
08 Mar 12
Originally posted by RJHinds“...A mutation is when something goes wrong with
The information is duplicated by the reproduction process by the encoded
information in the DNA. A mutation is when something goes wrong with
the reproduction process and information is usually lost or, in rare cases,
distorted. There is no creating of new information only slight modification
of the old information put in the creature by God in His ext ...[text shortened]... ept. It is you that seem stupid for me to have to explain to you
what he was actually saying.
the reproduction process and information is usually lost or, in rare cases,
distorted. There is no creating of new information ...”
Wrong! This shows how ignorant you are and that you simply don't know what you are talking about but pretend you do.
Mutations CAN constitute new information. Haven’t you heard of “Gene duplication” ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_duplication
“...Gene duplication (or chromosomal duplication or gene amplification) is any duplication of a region of DNA that contains a gene; it may occur as an error in homologous recombination, a retrotransposition event, or duplication of an entire chromosome.[1] The second copy of the gene is often free from selective pressure — that is, mutations of it have no deleterious effects to its host organism. Thus it accumulates mutations faster than a functional single-copy gene, over generations of organisms.
A duplication is the opposite of a deletion. ...”
and:
“...Major genome duplication events are not uncommon. ...”
08 Mar 12
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHinds“...Doesn't this make it clear to you that there is NO new information and that it is only
What causes Down syndrome?
Down syndrome occurs because of an abnormality characterized by an extra copy of genetic material on all or part of the 21st chromosome. Every cell in the body contains genes that are grouped along chromosomes in the cell's nucleus or center. There are normally 46 chromosomes in each cell, 23 inherited from your mother and 23 fr learly this is
not what I understand to represent anything close to an evolutionary process.
duplication of the same information that was already there. ...”(my emphasis)
there is not always distinction between the two. A duplication of some genes can result in a different expression of one of the copies.
Even when there initially is no difference in the expression of one of the copies, latter mutations of just one copy can lead to a difference in its expression.
Either way, you clearly have new information. There is overwhelming evidence that this has happened many times in evolutionary history and is a very common occurrence.
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0030344
“...As one of the most important sources of novel gene functions, gene duplications play a major role in evolutionary change. Though a gene copy will generally become inactive after duplication, it can be saved—either by acquiring a new function or dividing aspects of the original gene's function—on its way to becoming ubiquitous, or “fixed,” within the population. ..”
and:
“...Now that strong evidence for Ohno's hypothesis exists, researchers can investigate both the mechanism of genome duplication events and their possible effects on vertebrate evolution. It seems likely that a whole genome duplication would provide combinatorial possibilities that could permit a greater leap in evolution than could single gene duplications, even if the single gene duplications affected the complete set of genes. Studies that examine the function of these paralogous genes can explore whether these large-scale genomic events helped drive organismal complexity and diversification within the vertebrate lineage. —Liza Gross ...”
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0030314
http://www.google.co.uk/[WORD TOO LONG].2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=e325bd1c2d99c923&biw=1366&bih=578
“...Evidence for Independent Hox gene
duplications in the hag sh lineage...”
...the evidence is just vast.
09 Mar 12
Originally posted by RJHindsI did not see anything indicating it was a religious website.
I did not see anything indicating it was a religious website. But since the DNA
evidence has come out there have been atheist scientists who have much more
doubt in their previous beliefs now.
P.S. I believe the guy in the video is describing you when he says, "You
are not thinking, if you believe this happens by accident."
Really? are you blind? It's clearly a Muslim creationist site. How about this at the end of the very page you pointed us at:
God has placed at your service countless atoms and molecules, from the biggest to the smallest, from the simplest to the most complex, so that you may live a good and healthy life. Such favour and blessing alone are enough to deserve our constant thanks.
It was God who made the night for you to rest in, and the day to give you light. God pours out His favour on mankind, yet most people do not give thanks. (Qur'an, 40:61)
And this from another page:
This simply means that all living beings are created by God, the All-Powerful, All-Wise. God states this fact in the Qur'an in this way:
He is God - the Creator, the Maker, the Giver of Form. To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Everything in the heavens and earth glorifies Him. He is the Almighty, the All-Wise. (Qur'an, 59:24)
Today, what people have achieved by means of technology can at best be described as "an approach to the understanding of a tiny fragment of God's knowledge, as manifested in human DNA."
And this:
This situation makes it clear that the existence of living beings can only be explained by the intervention of a supernatural power. That supernatural power is the creation of God, who created the entire universe from nothing. Science has proven that evolution is still impossible as far as thermodynamics is concerned and the existence of life has no explanation but Creation.
And this:
Therefore, contrary to the supposition of materialists, the source of the information in nature cannot be matter itself. The source of information is not matter but a superior Wisdom beyond matter. This Wisdom existed prior to matter. Matter was brought into existence, given form, and organised by Him.
And this:
In the same way that every book or piece of information has a writer or owner, so does the information in DNA: and that Creator is our Lord God, the possessor of superior and infinite knowledge and reason.
And this:
There is no doubt that it is God, the Lord, who programs the genes so cleverly and perfectly.
And this:
God reveals this truth in a holy verse:
We created you, so why do you not confirm the truth? Have you thought about the sperm that you ejaculate? Is it you who create it or are We the Creator? (Qur'an, 56:57-59)
Did you read the site at all?
--- Penguin
09 Mar 12
Originally posted by RJHindsSo this Intelligent Designer of yours, I take it he is far from perfect then, surely "an error in cell division" demands some element of chance. The only issue with 'Down syndrome' is that we percieve the resulting phenotype to be a disadvantage; the fact that we can discuss the existence/non-existence of god is due to previous chance/random errors in cell division.
What causes Down syndrome?
Down syndrome occurs because of an abnormality characterized by an extra copy of genetic material on all or part of the 21st chromosome. Every cell in the body contains genes that are grouped along chromosomes in the cell's nucleus or center. There are normally 46 chromosomes in each cell, 23 inherited from your mother and 23 fr ...[text shortened]... learly this is
not what I understand to represent anything close to an evolutionary process.
09 Mar 12
Originally posted by Kewpiewell what is good for the goose is good for the gander, for time after time we are
Spirituality forum is a place provided for debate on religious matters. It's not owned by "believers" or by "unbelievers" either. Dragging religion into a forum intended for discussion of scientific topics is no more relevant than dragging it into the Sports forum or the Culture forum.
subject to non spirituality in the spirituality forum in the form of base materialism in all
it hideous forms, RJH is simply returning the favour.
09 Mar 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAh, you mean those subjects that YOU get to define as spirituality. If someone has a different opinion as to what is real spirituality, your feathers get ruffled.
well what is good for the goose is good for the gander, for time after time we are
subject to non spirituality in the spirituality forum in the form of base materialism in all
it hideous forms, RJH is simply returning the favour.
09 Mar 12
Originally posted by sonhouseahh the chief materialist himself, not content unless he's tearing away at the pillars of
Ah, you mean those subjects that YOU get to define as spirituality. If someone has a different opinion as to what is real spirituality, your feathers get ruffled.
someone's faith!