Puzzling artifacts

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I suspect however that if you were to examine hunter-gatherer societies rather than subsistence agriculturalists the comparison would be rather more interesting and might well end up favouring the ancients.

Are you saying that hunter gatherers are more intelligent on average than modern well educated people?

Originally posted by DeepThought
I'm also skeptical about your statements about education in the ancient world. I don't agree that it was non-existent in most cases (people need to be functional) and I don't agree that intelligence is a simple function of education (at least in a formal sense), what tends to matter is stimulation (toys are enough). So I don't think I agree with your c ...[text shortened]... rary humans are more intelligent than our recent ancestors were for the past 70,000 or so years.

I never said education was non-existent. It was however far less common. It is a fact that literacy levels in most societies in the past were well below those of today.
My claim is one of average intelligence and not overall intelligence. There were clearly societies that did implement education systems and did have exceptional people.

Knowledge however builds on itself, so having intelligent people does not automatically equate to an advance society with advanced science. As whodey points out, they didn't have cell phones no matter how intelligent they might have been.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Are you saying that hunter gatherers are more intelligent on average than modern well educated people?

Well, I reckon they could probably survive in our world, but I doubt many of us could survive in theirs. Does that make them more intelligent?

Originally posted by whodey
If you ask me, the human race is devolving, not evolving.

Nobody would ask you.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Actually the vast majority of ancient people were not as intelligent as the average person today. Intelligence is determined by both nutrition and education, neither of which were as good in the past. If you go to Zambia today and find some people living on subsistence farming who have not been to school, I can guarantee that you can do any type of intell ...[text shortened]... intelligence than richer people who have had good quality food growing up and a good education.

Ancient people did not necessarily have poorer nutrition (in fact may have been better)
and a lack of formal education does not mean alack of education. I think the assumption
that people way back were as intelligent as us is valid - though the sheer numbers now
mean we have more extraordinary people (and both ends of the spectrum).

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Ancient people did not necessarily have poorer nutrition (in fact may have been better)
and a lack of formal education does not mean alack of education. I think the assumption
that people way back were as intelligent as us is valid - though the sheer numbers now
mean we have more extraordinary people (and both ends of the spectrum).

Like a thousand times as more since our population is at least 1000 X those in ancient times. For ever Archimedes back then, we now have a thousand. And of course that many more REALLY stupid people too. Hinds proves that.

Originally posted by sonhouse
In ancient days, for the most part, poor nutrition would mean lower intelligence. That does not mean there will never be the occasional Archimedes (thought to have invented the Antikethera mechanism) but they would have been statistically fewer per thousand population.

What I see today are these asssholes who believe in ancient aliens coming to Earth sa ...[text shortened]... had to be committed to memory since that was all they had, writing not having been invented yet.

But there are plenty of ancient languages left that cannot be deciphered.

I remember reading about an ancient statue preserved in icy waters in Russia made of wood with a language never discovered before dating back about 10,000 years. I assume they preserved their writings on other pieces of wood which more than likely have rotted out and are gone forever.

Disasters such as the library of Alexandria are devastating in terms of revealing ancient history.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Ancient people did not necessarily have poorer nutrition (in fact may have been better)
and a lack of formal education does not mean alack of education. I think the assumption
that people way back were as intelligent as us is valid - though the sheer numbers now
mean we have more extraordinary people (and both ends of the spectrum).

It is like saying that today nutrition world wide is great.........unless you live in Ethiopia or Haiti.

Saying that is simply nonsensical. I'm sure nutrition depended upon the region and culture.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Well, I reckon they could probably survive in our world, but I doubt many of us could survive in theirs. Does that make them more intelligent?

No, it doesn't.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Ancient people did not necessarily have poorer nutrition (in fact may have been better)
and a lack of formal education does not mean alack of education. I think the assumption
that people way back were as intelligent as us is valid - though the sheer numbers now
mean we have more extraordinary people (and both ends of the spectrum).

Well I don't know much about other parts of the world, but I am fairly sure that intelligence and nutrition are gradually improving in Zambia over time. Similarly there is a noticeable increase in average hight world wide that is also a result of improved nutrition.
Disease is also a major factor. If a mother has any disease when she is pregnant it can have a negative effect on the babies intelligence. In Africa, diseases like malaria have a significant effect.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Atlantis?

Yes, for once whodey is correct. It was discovered in the pegasus galaxy, and brought here to earth. Turns out it was here originally, and that it's a spaceship, but its technology is so far beyond us, it's all a mystery really. I saw this documentary about it a while back. 🙄

Apparently it's got some kind of cloaking ability, so you can't see it, but it's right off the coast of San Fransisco (or near there), if you want to go visit it.

Oh, and anyone who would suggest that the ancients were not as intelligent as us better visit the spaceship city of atlantis, the city (!) that travels (!) through space (!) at incredible speeds! I mean, come on! 😲

Originally posted by C Hess
Yes, for once whodey is correct. It was discovered in the pegasus galaxy, and brought here to earth. Turns out it was here originally, and that it's a spaceship, but its technology is so far beyond us, it's all a mystery really. I saw this documentary about it a while back. 🙄

Apparently it's got some kind of cloaking ability, so you can't see it, but it's ...[text shortened]... antis, the city (!) that travels (!) through space (!) at incredible speeds! I mean, come on! 😲

I heard about it too !! There is an unsubstantiated rumor that a television series is planned very soon. 😉

Originally posted by whodey
I remember reading about an ancient statue preserved in icy waters in Russia made of wood with a language never discovered before dating back about 10,000 years.

Except that it is far more likely that the marks in question are just decorative.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, it doesn't.

Yes it does.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Actually the vast majority of ancient people were not as intelligent as the average person today. Intelligence is determined by both nutrition and education, neither of which were as good in the past. If you go to Zambia today and find some people living on subsistence farming who have not been to school, I can guarantee that you can do any type of intell ...[text shortened]... intelligence than richer people who have had good quality food growing up and a good education.

What intelligence tests test is the ability to take intelligence tests and a certain socio-political-specific level of base knowledge. What they do not test is learning capacity. Ancients would score poorly on any modern intelligence test because they lacked the socio-political-specific level of base knowledge we take for granted. This does not mean they had less learning capacity than modern people.

Learning capacity takes many forms. What we value in central Europe or No. America (math skills, verbal skills etc.) are useless elsewhere. Take any educated person out of a major city in Europe or No. America, dump him naked in the African savannah or the Australian outback, and he wouldn't survive three weeks.