07 Dec 19
@divegeester saidFor Buddhists, yes, they can. They can show an unbroken series of reincarnations of the Dalai Lama going back 14 generations, each successive one prophesied by the previous one.
Ah, but can they claim their authenticity based on the undocumented “laying on of hands” from antiquity to present day?
07 Dec 19
@moonbus said40 different authors in scripture, how many do you say did it, 2?
Yes, I have read the OT. So did whoever wrote the NT. There is an easy non-supernatural explanation for all the prophecies allegedly fulfilled. Whoever wrote the NT made up the bit about the resurrection, and made up all the incidents which would have fulfilled the OT prophecies, or re-interpreted such incidents as could be made to fit the OT prophecies.
"Jesus' life stand ...[text shortened]... eason to believe that only the Christian miracle stories are true and that all the others are false.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
07 Dec 19
It would be important, yes, but bear in mind that the story of Jesus's resurrection is not the only one known from antiquity. There are older accounts of anthropomorphic gods rising from the dead.
Could you give me two of your strongest examples of dying and rising gods ?
What I have noticed is critics taking a little of the aspect of THIS myth and combining it with THAT myth and ANOTHER myth to make an accumulated case - "See, its just like the Son of God being raised from the dead."
This collective conglomerated approach doesn't portray a realistic single explanation of a pre-Christian dying and rising god just like Jesus.
Individually examined, I bet that all your suggestions will prove to be quite unlike the New Testament gospel.
Did Greco Roman Myths About Dying and Rising Gods Influence the Gospel Accounts of the Resurrection? Dr. William Lane Craig
07 Dec 19
@kellyjay saidSorry, I don't understand your question.
40 different authors in scripture, how many do you say did it, 2?
PS to previous post on fulfilment of prophecy:
The fulfilment of some prophecies has a banal (not supernatural) explanation. For example, Jesus entering Jerusalem on a mule. If we assume Jesus knew of the prophecy, that Judea's future king would enter the city on a mule, he could easily have chosen to indicate to the residents of Jerusalem that their future king was entering by availing himself of this obvious symbolism. No supernatural power required, just a prior knowledge of the OT.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
07 Dec 19
2 edits
Here Dr. Gary Habermos is interviewed about his upcoming book. It will be some a four plus thousand page new book on history, critical methodology, and the resurrection of Jesus. (But not a compendium of his other some 20 books on that subject).
A Historian Explains the Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus (Dr. Gary Habermas)
07 Dec 19
@sonship saidDying and resurrected gods among pagans include Osiris (Egyptian), Attis (consort of Cybele, Phrygian, adopted also by the Romans), Inanna/Ishtar (Sumerian).
@moonbus
It would be important, yes, but bear in mind that the story of Jesus's resurrection is not the only one known from antiquity. There are older accounts of anthropomorphic gods rising from the dead.
Could you give me two of your strongest examples of dying and rising gods ?
What I have noticed is critics taking a little of the aspect of THI ...[text shortened]... ts of the Resurrection? [/b] Dr. William Lane Craig
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peoGUzj81TY
Regarding Ishtar, see:
https://www.ancient.eu/ishtar/
07 Dec 19
@moonbus saidYou seem to be suggesting ill intent, in both the OT and NT writers. The number of things done surrounding Jesus Christ was an amazing number and you are suggesting it didn't happen as written except through deceit?
Sorry, I don't understand your question.
PS to previous post on fulfilment of prophecy:
The fulfilment of some prophecies has a banal (not supernatural) explanation. For example, Jesus entering Jerusalem on a mule. If we assume Jesus knew of the prophecy, that Judea's future king would enter the city on a mule, he could easily have chosen to indicate to the residents of ...[text shortened]... himself of this obvious symbolism. No supernatural power required, just a prior knowledge of the OT.
With respect to those other gods rising from the dead, did they start and end in this universe?
07 Dec 19
@kellyjay saidThe narrative was written decades after Jesus is purported to have lived. I have no reason to doubt that they were just as credulous and as earnest as you when it comes to perpetuating the story.
The number of things done surrounding Jesus Christ was an amazing number and you are suggesting it didn't happen as written except through deceit?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
07 Dec 19
1 edit
The fulfilment of some prophecies has a banal (not supernatural) explanation. For example, Jesus entering Jerusalem on a mule. If we assume Jesus knew of the prophecy, that Judea's future king would enter the city on a mule, he could easily have chosen to indicate to the residents of Jerusalem that their future king was entering by availing himself of this obvious symbolism. No supernatural power required, just a prior knowledge of the OT.
How would He arrange His birth in Bethlehem? (as the prophet Micah predicted).
How would He arrange His death on the day the Passover Lamb was slain after being examined by the experts for four days? The paschal lamb was to be examined for perfection before sacrifice as Jesus was examined by the Law experts.
From Life Study of Matthew by Witness Lee
... the last time the Lord Jesus came to Jerusalem He came not to work, but to present Himself to those who were to slaughter Him. In 21:23—22:46 the Lord was tested and examined. According to Exodus 12, the passover lamb had to be examined four full days. In the Jewish calendar, four days could also be considered six days, for part of a day was counted as one day. Thus, Matthew says that Christ ascended the Mount of Transfiguration after six days, but Luke says that He did so after eight days (Matt. 17:1; Luke 9:28). During the last week of His life, Christ was examined for six days. Then He was crucified on the day of the Passover. This indicates that He was the real Passover Lamb; the lamb in Exodus 12 was a type.
https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=13DCC0C0C6
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
07 Dec 19
3 edits
Dying and resurrected gods among pagans include Osiris (Egyptian), Attis (consort of Cybele, Phrygian, adopted also by the Romans), Inanna/Ishtar (Sumerian).
Could it be that some of the skepticism you have has NOT been turned on certain things you have been told about this?
The Christ Myth - Was Jesus a Pagan Copycat? - J. P. Holding
Author of "Shattering the Christ Myth".
Q and A Discussion and debate live stream open forum.
07 Dec 19
@sonship saidHe could have been born virtually anywhere: Nazareth, for example. Were any of the people he was around 30+ years later present for his birth? Was whoever wrote the story of Jesus - decades after he was executed by the Romans - aware of the Micah prediction?
@FMFWhat makes you think Jesus was born in Bethlehem?
What makes you think He was not?
Something I have not heard in the last twelve or so years ?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
07 Dec 19
1 edit
he could easily have chosen to indicate to the residents of Jerusalem that their future king was entering by availing himself of this obvious symbolism.
Zechariah had written of the king of Israel coming into the city on a donkey hundreds of years previous.
But the timing of His death is really hard to imagine He engineered (unless He is God).
Can you conspired the exact appropriate day of your execution by hostil enemies ?
What you propose is harder to believe then the account of the Gospels of His arrest, trial, execution on the day in harmony with the slaughtering of the Paschal Lamb.
This is of the case - the conspiracy theories are more fantastic then the straightforward account of the gospels.
How did He get Judas to betray Him at the proper time?