05 Sep 10
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Originally posted by divegeesterDid I say forgievness would not be there "if deserved"? So your secure with the fact that your saved?
What a surprisingly naive question, I'd expect an unbeliever or hardened atheist to ask that, but not someone claiming to know the mercy of God.
Don't you ever read the bible in the JWs, or is it just those other additional books you have? Try reading about David who was 'a man after God's heart' who committed murder and adultery after he became ki freed!
Mercy triumphs over judgment, read it and believe it if you have an ear for it.
Why have you still not responded to the scriptures I've quoted?????????
05 Sep 10
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Even our faith is a gift of God. Even if we obey perfectly from now on, we do not deserve a reward (Luke 17:10).
Nothing we can do will earn us even a small portion of our salvation. Its vanity to think anything else
"It is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9)
It is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved" (Acts 15:11)
I've said it before, works are the fruit of our relationship with Christ. They are an outward sign of the inward redemption, not the other way around. If you do works and resent them, then they are for naught.
05 Sep 10
Originally posted by divegeesterAlso Rev 21:8 speaks of murderers, fonicators, etc, that will not be saved. So if one has declared that Jesus has saved him but at a latter time commits this type sin and continues on, there is no slavation for him.
What a surprisingly naive question, I'd expect an unbeliever or hardened atheist to ask that, but not someone claiming to know the mercy of God.
Don't you ever read the bible in the JWs, or is it just those other additional books you have? Try reading about David who was 'a man after God's heart' who committed murder and adultery after he became ki ...[text shortened]... freed!
Mercy triumphs over judgment, read it and believe it if you have an ear for it.
05 Sep 10
Originally posted by duecerWell the point I'm trying to make about ones saying they are saved is according to Matt 24:13 """""no ones is saved until the end."""". The end has not come yet so no one on this planet is saved yet unless this scripture is wrong, which it isn't.
Even our faith is a gift of God. Even if we obey perfectly from now on, we do not deserve a reward (Luke 17:10).
Nothing we can do will earn us even a small portion of our salvation. Its vanity to think anything else
"It is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can ...[text shortened]... mption, not the other way around. If you do works and resent them, then they are for naught.
And then only the 144,000 are given the gift on immortality when they are resurrected to heaven. That has never been promised to humans on the earth, ever. We have been promised the prospect of living forever as long as we remain faithful to God once were in the Paradise the Bible promises. We could still be put to death by God if we don't stay faithful to him. We will never be immortal just as Adam & Eve weren't.
06 Sep 10
Originally posted by galveston75over and over again with this 144,000 that is a figurative number. it represents completeness, not an actual number of people.
Well the point I'm trying to make about ones saying they are saved is according to Matt 24:13 """""no ones is saved until the end."""". The end has not come yet so no one on this planet is saved yet unless this scripture is wrong, which it isn't.
And then only the 144,000 are given the gift on immortality when they are resurrected to heaven. That has n ...[text shortened]... e don't stay faithful to him. We will never be immortal just as Adam & Eve weren't.
as for no one being saved until the end, that is a poor understanding of that passage at best. Christ's message was for the Apostles who would see great tribulation in their lifetime. and so they were encouraged to remain faithful to the end, in spite of the persecutions.
06 Sep 10
Originally posted by duecerSo you are agreeing then that it is only those who remain faithful until the end are the ones who will be saved, "then?" If that is true then it would show that one is not saved or given the gift of everlasting life until they have remained faithful until the end and have proven their faithfulness to God along with the works his son commanded us to do. Is that what your saying?
over and over again with this 144,000 that is a figurative number. it represents completeness, not an actual number of people.
as for no one being saved until the end, that is a poor understanding of that passage at best. Christ's message was for the Apostles who would see great tribulation in their lifetime. and so they were encouraged to remain faithful to the end, in spite of the persecutions.
06 Sep 10
Originally posted by duecerAnd on the issue of the 144,000 who says it not literal? Are there some other explinations in the Bible that show this is not literal?
over and over again with this 144,000 that is a figurative number. it represents completeness, not an actual number of people.
as for no one being saved until the end, that is a poor understanding of that passage at best. Christ's message was for the Apostles who would see great tribulation in their lifetime. and so they were encouraged to remain faithful to the end, in spite of the persecutions.
Who, from the Bible, has shown you this is not literal?
06 Sep 10
Originally posted by galveston75You've said it yourself that member of the JW cult is not going to heaven.
And on the issue of the 144,000 who says it not literal? Are there some other explinations in the Bible that show this is not literal?
Who, from the Bible, has shown you this is not literal?
Why? I don't know. Perhaps that you god doesn't want you there...?
06 Sep 10
Originally posted by galveston75umm no, because Christ was encouraging his direct followers he wasn't speaking to people 2000 years later. context is everything
So you are agreeing then that it is only those who remain faithful until the end are the ones who will be saved, "then?" If that is true then it would show that one is not saved or given the gift of everlasting life until they have remained faithful until the end and have proven their faithfulness to God along with the works his son commanded us to do. Is that what your saying?
06 Sep 10
Originally posted by duecerThe fact that you and Divegeester and JosephW can claim that unrepentant murderers, child molesters etc can get eternal life is a clear indication that your understanding of the doctrine of Christ is extremely twisted.
umm no, because Christ was encouraging his direct followers he wasn't speaking to people 2000 years later. context is everything
All of the examples given of sinners in the Bible were examples of sinners who repented.
Im repeating the question. Can an unrepentant sinner, who formerly accepted Christ and then later on changed and became a rather evil person as demonstrated by his evil deeds, get eternal life?
Eternal life is only awarded at the return of Christ, and you only get if you lived a life of good works. Its not optional and its not a guarantee that once you claim to have faith that your good works will automatically follow.
06 Sep 10
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So do you guys believe that once saved, always saved? If that is the case it would make absolutly no sense. That would be no different then a legal official handing out passes to anyone saying that no matter what crimes you may commit in the future you'll never be punished. You'll be scott free forever....
06 Sep 10
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Originally posted by Rajk999I never claimed that someone who was unrepentant would be saved. now your just making things up.
The fact that you and Divegeester and JosephW can claim that unrepentant murderers, child molesters etc can get eternal life is a clear indication that your understanding of the doctrine of Christ is extremely twisted.
All of the examples given of sinners in the Bible were examples of sinners who repented.
Im repeating the question. Can an unrepentant ...[text shortened]... ot a guarantee that once you claim to have faith that your good works will automatically follow.
Once a person encounters Christ and accepts him as their savior, a fundamental change takes place. the sinner through the grace of God, is able to reach out and accept that sanctifying power offered through Christ. However simply going through the motions is not the same as belief. Continuing in sin is the outward sign that they have not truly converted.
Say a person was a terrible sinner their whole life, and then someone visits them at their deathbed. During the visitation, the Holy Spirit convicts the heart of that sinner and they repent of their sins, are they not saved? Surely they have no works to offer, and they have not shared the gospel with anyone, is that person saved? Unquestionably yes.
06 Sep 10
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Originally posted by duecerthis has to be the lamest excuse ever! if we are to believe duecer, then all the words that Christ uttered to his faithful disciples have no meaning for us, the sermon on the mount for example was spoken to his apostles and a crowd that had gathered on the mount of olives, was that simply for persons living two thousand years ago? is that really the case? quite clearly no. Galveston hit it right on the button, for Christs own words state that it cannot have been solely for those persons who heard him utter it just over two thousand years previously. why? because he qualifies the statement,
umm no, because Christ was encouraging his direct followers he wasn't speaking to people 2000 years later. context is everything
(Matthew 24:13-14) . . .But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
now as far as i am aware, the end has not yet come, and therefore Christ's words are still important, what is more, why would endurance be needed if no matter what we do we are in a state of salvation, for if we are to believe those who advocate this fallacy, it matters very little what we do, for we are saved, regardless.
Once again simple logic, an appeal to scripture and an ability to reason with ones own mind has shown this idea up for what it truly is, a non reality.