Spirituality
11 Dec 14
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by divegeester
Yes I think there is "something wrong" with finding your ability to forgive fortified by the knowledge that the forgivee will be burning in eternal agony for all eternity. That you cannot see what is wrong with this mindset exposes the chasm between our perspectives.
I am only concerned that there be a "chasm" between the exhortation of Christ and my obedience, by His empowering grace, to that charge.
That's the discrepancy that I'm more concerned with. He said love your enemies and pray for those who despitefully use you.
"Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy." (Matt. 5:7)
I know that even if persecuted unfairly, before the judgement seat of Christ, before the bema seat of His judgment of CHRISTIANS, I will still require mercy.
To forgive by the power of God conforms one to the image of Christ. And to be conformed to the image of Christ is an important part of God's eternal purpose.
Paul told the Thessalonians to "rest". You know it is hard to "rest" when you have anger and vengeance seething in your heart. And Paul said to "rest" in relation to terrible opposers of the faith upon whom God would take vengeance.
"Since it is just with God to repay with affliction those afflicting you, and to you who are being afflicted, REST WITH US at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire,
Rendering vengeance to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
They will pat the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength when He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed ..." (Second Thess. 1:6-10a)
Rest is not keep a grudge.
Rest is not contemplating revenge.
Rest is leaving all vindication to God.
Rest is even praying that as God was merciful and opened my eyes He would also have mercy to open the eyes of others.
The best understanding there of "the penalty of eternal destruction" I think has to be the lake of fire. Paul speaks of "the righteous judgment of God" (v.5) . Paul speaks that the persecuted "rest" .
So only any "chasm" between the healthy teaching of the New Testament and my living, is what concerns me as being serious.
The revelation of the Lord Jesus in this instance is "with the angels of His power, in flaming fire." The flaming fire must be not for the destruction of being, but the eternal destruction of well being.
17 Dec 14
Originally posted by sonshipI'm afraid that you repeatedly attempting to explain the mechanics of how those who have mistreated you being burnt alive in hell for eternity in some way helps you to forgive them, does not reach me. I don't believe anyone will be in hell being burnt alive for eternity for any reason.Yes I think there is "something wrong" with finding your ability to forgive fortified by the knowledge that the forgivee will be burning in eternal agony for all eternity. That you cannot see what is wrong with this mindset exposes the chasm between our perspectives.
I am only concerned that there be a "chasm" between the exhortation ...[text shortened]... laming fire must be not for the destruction of being, but the eternal destruction of well being.
Therefore my forgiveness of anyone who mistreats me is not fortified by some medieval holocaust perspective of the the afterlife, but by either my own cognitive decision or, and speaking as a Christian, the spirit of Christ empowering me to forgive. I'm not sure that this is supported in scripture directly and I'm open to correction, but I think that my human heart is pretty unforgiving and I need the grace of God in order to forgive those who have mistreated me, not an image of them suffering in eternal hell. This I believe to be an erroneous concept fulled by a horrible erroneous doctrine.
17 Dec 14
Originally posted by divegeester"RJHinds, you have infamously said to me (a fellow Christian) that "I deserve to burn for eternity in hell" - simply because I reject the doctrine of eternal suffering."
RJHinds, you have infamously said to me (a fellow Christian) that "I deserve to burn for eternity in hell" - simply because I reject the doctrine of eternal suffering. This is a horrendous thing to say; a far worse hate crime than anything an Islamic extremist could do to me.
You explained your rational (if that is not an oxymoron) of this callous co ...[text shortened]... u said no, but have refused to explain why.
Here is your opportunity to defend your position.
I would really like to see that quote in its entirety where RJ said you would burn in hell for not believing "the doctrine of eternal suffering".
Originally posted by josephwIt has been well documented discussed and confirmed by RJHinds himself on being challenged; I find it difficult to accept that despite your reluctance to engage with me on many occasions, that you have missed all of these interactions. You seem to want to pick and choose when and how you engage with me despite me repeated chasing you down on certain topics. Because of your repeated prevarication I have little motivation of wading through pages of RJHinds trolling idiocy to find it for you.
[b]"RJHinds, you have infamously said to me (a fellow Christian) that "I deserve to burn for eternity in hell" - simply because I reject the doctrine of eternal suffering."
I would really like to see that quote in its entirety where RJ said you would burn in hell for not believing "the doctrine of eternal suffering".[/b]
But let's see - if you answer me these 2 questions directly and succinctly and I will find it for you:
1) Do you believe in an eternal hell where the unbelievers will reside in eternal suffering?
2) Assuming RJHinds did say that I deserve to burn in hell for refusing to accept the doctrine of eternal suffering, do you think he would correct in making such an assertion?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by divegeester
suffering in eternal hell. This I believe to be an erroneous concept fulled by a horrible erroneous doctrine.[/b]
I'm afraid that you repeatedly attempting to explain the mechanics of how those who have mistreated you being burnt alive in hell for eternity in some way helps you to forgive them, does not reach me. I don't believe anyone will be in hell being burnt alive for eternity for any reason.
I was explaining my beliefs and the biblical basis for them.
Now I would ask you, when Jesus died and told the thief that "Today you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43) do you consider that they went that day and were alive in Paradise or dead in Paradise?
And I am just trying to see how you reason this. I don't intend to bludgeon you into forsaking your annihilationism.
Therefore my forgiveness of anyone who mistreats me is not fortified by some medieval holocaust perspective of the the afterlife, but by either my own cognitive decision or, and speaking as a Christian, the spirit of Christ empowering me to forgive.
These are just emotionally charged statements.
I have never used the term "afterlife".
Nothing I said negated "the Spirit of Christ" (I capitalize Spirit there) empowering me to forgive.
God being the final Judge being contemplated and the Spirit of Christ empowering me to forgive are not a dichotomy to me.
So you say "Well I just need the [s]pirit of Christ to forgive."
Me too.
And as I do I contemplate the word of Christ as well.
I'm not sure that this is supported in scripture directly and I'm open to correction, but I think that my human heart is pretty unforgiving and I need the grace of God in order to forgive those who have mistreated me, not an image of them suffering in eternal hell.
On this we agree, that is our human hearts are pretty unforgiving and we need the grace of Christ. No disagreement here from me whatsoever.
In fact I need also the grace of Christ to even think about eternal perdition.
I pretty much need His grace to even consider the wonderfulness of eternal life as well. Who is sufficient for these things?
This I believe to be an erroneous concept fulled by a horrible erroneous doctrine.
I understand that. And I give a reason for the hope that is in me to anyone, as the Apostle Peter said a Christian should do. One of the items of my hope is that I will never perish in the lake of fire and that my name is recorded in the book of life.
If it is not, to the lake of fire the Bible says I will go.
My hope is not that much that others go.
My hope is that I share the Gospel, others receive mercy to believe, and they too do not go to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
17 Dec 14
Originally posted by sonshipBefore I engage further with you on this topic, I'd like to ask you the same question I'm asking joesephw:I'm afraid that you repeatedly attempting to explain the mechanics of how those who have mistreated you being burnt alive in hell for eternity in some way helps you to forgive them, does not reach me. I don't believe anyone will be in hell being burnt alive for eternity for any reason.
I was explaining my beliefs and the biblical basis ...[text shortened]... cy to believe, and they too do not go to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Do you think I will burn in hell (or whatever term you chose to describe what hell is) for refusing to believe the doctrine of eternal suffering?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by divegeesterYou should phrase this question to me like this -
Before I engage further with you on this topic, I'd like to ask you the same question I'm asking joesephw:
Do you think I will burn in hell (or whatever term you chose to describe what hell is) for refusing to believe the doctrine of eternal suffering?
Do I, sonship, believe that I deserve to be sent to an eternal punishment if I was not in Christ ? And I have to say, speaking for myself, Yes, I believe apart from Jesus, I deserve that.
As it stands, as to eternal destinies, I have been judged already - on the cross at Golgotha, at Calvary justice was imputed upon the Son of God on my behalf.
So I will speak for myself. Rejoice with me that I found the Savior.
I don't want to do or say anything that might hinder another from receiving this Savior. For example, if His warning is plain, I would not want to interject an opinion of my own that would reduce the seriousness of that warning.
17 Dec 14
Originally posted by divegeesterPeace be with you,
Before I engage further with you on this topic, I'd like to ask you the same question I'm asking joesephw:
Do you think I will burn in hell (or whatever term you chose to describe what hell is) for refusing to believe the doctrine of eternal suffering?
You will not 'burn in hell' for not believing in the doctrine of eternal suffering.
That would be like saying an Atheist will go to hell for not believing in Jesus.
Going to heaven or hell is based on where your heart is. If you spend your days in charity of life, God will be with you.
Knowledge will not save you on it's own merits, but it is given as a tool to help you.
Originally posted by sonshipI didn't ask you whether or not you (me, or anyone else) deserved hell generally speaking, i.e. outside of Christ's atoning work. I asked you specifically if you thought that a Christian who refused to believe in the doctrine of eternal suffering, deserved to be cast into hell because of that disbelief. As RJHinds believes I "deserve" to be.
You should phrase this question to me like this -
Do [b]I, sonship, believe that I deserve to be sent to an eternal punishment if I was not in Christ ? And I have to say, speaking for myself, Yes, I believe apart from Jesus, I deserve that.
As it stands, as to eternal destinies, I have been judged already - on the cross at Golgotha, at ...[text shortened]... ld not want to interject an opinion of my own that would reduce the seriousness of that warning.[/b]
I know you know what I meant and I find it fascinating that you and (most of) the other alleged Christians here will not state their positions; are you all embarrassed of your beliefs?
17 Dec 14
Originally posted by PudgenikThank you for being (except for Caljust) the first Christian with the fortitude to express their belief in this matter. It is interesting that Caljust does not believe in eternal suffering per se. Do you believe in eternal suffering for unbelievers?
Peace be with you,
You will not 'burn in hell' for not believing in the doctrine of eternal suffering.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by divegeester
I didn't ask you whether of not you (me or anyone else) deserved hell generally speaking, i.e. outside of Christ's atoning work. I asked you specifically if you thought that a Christian who refused to believe in the doctrine of eternal suffering, deserved to be cast into hell because of that.
No. Of course I do not believe that one who has been eternally justified in Christ should be UNJUSTIFIED because they have a doctrinal problem of this sort.
Does this "No" answer the question you crave after here?
No. If a Christian brother who has been regenerated to become born again and received justification for eternal redemption, has a doctrinal problem with hell, I emphatically do not believe Christ will UNJUSTIFY such a one for that.
Having said that, and having hoped you have understood that, I will add something. Such a Christian who teaches wrongly may be disciplined during the thousand year millennial kingdom.
In fact, God may give the very bad Christian witness a taste of damnation temporarily. I DO believe that for some Christians, God may say something like " Because of certain failings in your Christian life after you were saved from all your past sins, you will be disciplined in this or that area where you were rebellious."
And in the most extreme end of that disciplinary spectrum God may cause one who is saved forever to taste what it is like to be damned temporarily.
This is not Purgatory. This is concerning dispensational discipline. And I, way back, wrote a whole thread on that subject.
So much in this post for that.
17 Dec 14
Originally posted by sonshipI don't read most of your stuff anymore, I've explained why a few times.I didn't ask you whether of not you (me or anyone else) deserved hell generally speaking, i.e. outside of Christ's atoning work. I asked you specifically if you thought that a Christian who refused to believe in the doctrine of eternal suffering, deserved to be cast into hell because of that.
No. Of course I do not believe that one who ...[text shortened]... ne. And I, way back, wrote a whole thread on that subject.
So much in this post for that.
You don't believe that I deserve to go to hell for eternity but it sounds like you think I may get a "taste of it" for being ... a bad witness...??
I agree with discipline but your ideas about getting a "taste of damnation" come straight out of your cultish book in my opinion and I don't accept them.
I find you often to be in what I believe to be dangerous doctrinal error. Other such as Suzianne enjoy your long-winded hair-drier monologues btu I see the content as sometimes being quite suspect.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by divegeester
I don't read most of your stuff anymore, I've explained why a few times.
You don't believe that I deserve to go to hell for eternity but it sounds like you think I may get a "taste of it" for being ... a bad witness...??
I agree with discipline but your ideas about getting a "taste of damnation" come straight out of your cultish book in my opinion ...[text shortened]... y your long-winded hair-drier monologues btu I see the content as sometimes being quite suspect.
I don't read most of your stuff anymore, I've explained why a few times.
Oh come on divegeester. Either you want to talk to me or you don't.
If you're not going to read what I wrote why not just stop asking me to write to you in reponse to some question?
You're just about as dogmatic as the Spanish Inquisition.
You don't believe that I deserve to go to hell for eternity but it sounds like you think I may get a "taste of it" for being ... a bad witness...??
It is possible.
And I think I can prove it from Scripture.
Let me know if you don't intend to read it. Then I'll just direct my explanation to a general readership.
I agree with discipline but your ideas about getting a "taste of damnation" come straight out of your cultish book in my opinion and I don't accept them.
What is my "cultish book" ? Are you speaking of the New Testament as my "cultish book" ? I regard the New Testament as the oracles of God.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
17 Dec 14
The question before me now is HOW can I say a saved Christian could POSSIBLY get a "taste" of damnation ?
Let me start with the briefest explanation. And if someone is still unconvinced I can go further.
Just as a worldly judge has at his or her disposal, within the law, a large spectrum of remedies that can be instituted for a crime, how much more "the Judge of all the earth."
It is our foolish assumption that God's hands are somehow tied by His own program logic.
It is apparent that for the saved during the age PRECEEDING the eternal age there are:
1.) Degrees of honor and reward.
2.) Degrees of discipline and punishment.
If a judge of this world has a wide spectrum of remedies that can be applied to an offender, we should not expect that the Ultimate Judge of the whole universe cannot do the same.
He can SAVE me forever and STILL discipline me as a son.
And on the furthest extent of the negative side of His discipline of an eternally saved person, He may cause such a one to taste temporarily His harshest punishment.
Such temporary tasting of His most severe discipline will not last more than one thousand years. It could be, I think, any portion of that.
This view has been thoroughly contemplated and not loosely adopted.
Anyone need more reasoning ?