27 Oct 14
Originally posted by Rank outsider"Eternal punishment of countless billions to glorify God."
I don't think know what misleading and disingenuous means.
The question is not misleading, as you have created a belief system that means you are worshiping something that purports to be good but is in fact they most evil thing to have ever existed. When you come across such a contradiction, you should question the whole basis of your thinking, not ...[text shortened]... e this is true?
I haven't characterised any of this. It is just a statement of your beliefs.
That is a mischaracterization of the God of the Bible. It is disingenuous to make that suggestion because the inference is that God is unjust.
God's glory is His being. God is the only one of His kind. God is the creator of all other beings, and the creator of all that exists. All beings, and all that exists, is a reflection of God's glory.
To say that the eternal punishment of the damned, no matter how severe or lenient that may be, is somehow linked to God's glory, misses the point. IMO
It would be like me saying that the more I sin the more glory it brings to God.
God forbid!
27 Oct 14
Originally posted by divegeesterThrow the baby out with the bath water.
Because it is your "speculation" is why it requires explanation; I would have thought that was obvious.
As it is complete fruit loop error is why I think I've read enough of your "speculation" to able to pretty much write off your opinions on biblical scripture sonship.
Thanks.
Brilliant.
27 Oct 14
Originally posted by divegeester
Clearly I have to start a thread on this to stand any chance of getting a response from you on this topic.
"In the shouting in the street" thread in one of you soliloquies defending eternal suffering, you said this regarding those cast into this perpetual torment:
[b]"...But the lost will glorify Him with their endless woe. They will be hung out i ...[text shortened]... ut in chains, and how people suffering "endless woe" will be a "glorification of God"?
Thanks
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
(Mathew 12:32 KJV)
"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
(Mathew 12:32 NASB)
Since "world" and "age" are interchangeable translations, then I suspect "world" is referring to a time period. For example, the "world" or "age" before the flood and after the flood. It would be like the Medieval World or middle ages in comparison to the modern world.
27 Oct 14
2 edits
Originally posted by josephwAre you unable to give a coherent response to any post?
Throw the baby out with the bath water.
Brilliant.
In sonship's scenario of unbelievers being in "eternal woe" and "hung out in chains of punishment as a warning for other worlds"
Which part is the "baby" in your view?
27 Oct 14
Originally posted by RJHindsI have no idea what point it is you may be trying to make.And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
(Mathew 12:32 KJV)
[quote] "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against th ...[text shortened]... the flood. It would be like the Medieval World or middle ages in comparison to the modern world.
27 Oct 14
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsLeaving aside your interpretation for the moment; you are aware that sonship was not quoting from scripture but was "speculating" using his own language and therefore the use of "worlds" means exactly that - other planets. He has corroborated this in his long post on the previous page.
The point is that the Holy Bible does not speak of any alien worlds as you imagine. The "worlds" or "ages", in other words, means time periods in history.
What do you as a Christian think of sonship's claims that unbelievers will be "hung out in chains of punishment as a warning for other worlds"?
And that he sees this as "glorifying god"?
27 Oct 14
Originally posted by divegeesterI do not recall this in scripture. So I suppose it is just his speculation as he said.
Leaving aside your interpretation for the moment; you are aware that sonship was not quoting from scripture but was [b]"speculating" using his own language and therefore the use of "worlds" means exactly that - other planets. He has corroborated this in his long post on the previous page.
What do you as a Christian think of sonship's claims that ...[text shortened]... ishment as a warning for other worlds"[/b]?
And that he sees this as "glorifying god"?[/b]
27 Oct 14
Originally posted by RJHindsWhat do you as a Christian think of sonship's claims that unbelievers will be "hung out in chains of punishment as a warning for other worlds"?
I do not recall this in scripture. So I suppose it is just his speculation as he said.
And that he sees this as "glorifying god"?
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27 Oct 14
3 edits
Originally posted by divegeesterIt seems like you want me to get into pleasing men.
What do you as a Christian think of sonship's claims that unbelievers will be [b]"hung out in chains of punishment as a warning for other worlds"?
And that he sees this as "glorifying god"?[/b]
Some men will be displeased if I teach the Bible faithfully.
To the questions below divegeester, I expect succinct and direct answers as alternative ways of deriving the basic message of Isaiah 66:22-23.. You can explain your interpretation of this passage along several lines:
" For as the new heavens and new earth, which I make,
Remain before Me, declares Jehovah, So will your seed and your name remain. (v.22)
And from new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath
all flesh will come to bow down before Me, says Jehovah. (v.23)
Then they will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; For their worm will not die, Nor will their fire be quenched; And they will be an abhorence to all flesh." (v.24)
1.) Explain why God would have the inabitants of the new heavens and new earth go and observe what is described in verses 23 and 24.
2.) What is your better explanation as to WHY God would have the saved do this if not to be added to many other ways in which He is glorified ?
3.) If this is a spectacle from "new moon to new moon" and "from Sabbath to Sabbath" why would punished NOT be annihilated into ashes (non-existent) within that period of elapsing time?
4.) How come in one month time their burning has not totally obliterated all trace of their existence?
5.) How do you think Jesus Christ interpreted the phrase "For their worm will not die, Nor will their fire be quenched" when He made reference to this passage in the following New Testament instances:
Mark 9:47 - 49 - "And if your eye stumbles you, cast it out; it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna,
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. For everyone will be salted with fire."
I am not asking for a complete exposition of the passage or chapter of Mark 9. I only ask you to convey whether Jesus lifted this phrase from Isaiah 66:22,23 to:
a.) Indicate a temporary punishment that rather quickly passes the offender to the non-existence of annhilation?
b.) Indicate the the punishment is perpetual and un-extinquishable for the punished?
5.) What do you think God is wanting the saved to contemplate about "the men who have transgressed against Me" ?
6.) Whatever you ascertain God wants the observing of this scene on occasion "from new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath" could it be in anyway "for the glory of God"?
I do not ask you would it be the only way glory could be brought to God. I ask you could it, among other ways, also be a way to bring glory to God?
Please answer each question definitely, clearly without obfuscation behind more questions to me. And appeals to strong emotional outrage is not necessary for this reply. Thankyou.
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28 Oct 14
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeesterNo, I prefer not to get sidetracked off into another line of responses.
Based on what?
I wrote above:
Please answer each question definitely, clearly without obfuscation behind more questions to me.[my emphasis]
The enumerated points I asked you to speak to do not need a preliminary side discussion of that introductory comment. Isaiah 66:22-24 was the main thing in that post I would like to see you speak to.
Can you do it?
28 Oct 14
3 edits
Originally posted by sonshipNice try, but I'm afraid the onus is on you to explain your strange cultish beliefs, not on me to come up with alternatives.
To the questions below divegeester, I expect succinct and direct answers as alternative ways of deriving the basic message of Isaiah 66:22-23.
Whether I can or cannot provide you with an acceptable interpretation of any biblical scripture is irrelevant to you creating this quite astonishing unsubstantiated hypothesis about beings from other planets being given a warning through the eternal suffering of those on planet earth - presuming the eternal suffering is taking place on planet earth - who knows in your scenario.
Sonship, you have strayed far from the narrow path with this strange belief and I can now see why you vehemently contend to the doctrine of eternal suffering as it permeates your entire broader spiritual perspective - even to influencing your attitude to personal forgiveness and directing your imagination in framing God's vision for the universe.
I respectfully encourage you to hold fast to the basics of the faith once again.
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28 Oct 14
2 edits
Originally posted by divegeester
Nice try, but I'm afraid the onus is on you to explain your strange cultish beliefs, not on me to come up with alternatives.
I think most posters here pro or con my explanations, can see this is a dodge.
I take it that you cannot even explain where my exegesis of Isaiah 66:22-24 goes wrong.
Whether I can or cannot provide you with an acceptable interpretation of any biblical scripture is irrelevant to you creating this quite astonishing unsubstantiated hypothesis about beings from other planets ...
Now hold on divegeester. The planets matter was quite secondary. We should be pass that. I said I was SPECULATING. Worlds, ages, planets, other worlds, other planets etc. is not the germane issue here. And I set all that aside.
The bugaboo is punishement unto the glory of God, whether one world or two or whatever.
Can you are can you not DEMONSTRATE why I should NOT regard the prophecy of Isaiah 66:22-24 reasonably as saying something about the glory of God in that time of the new heaven and new earth?
I am not trying to force anything upon you. My request is reasonable if you find fault with my understanding of the Bible at this point.
If you cannot do the job then don't hedge about WHETHER you can or WHETHER you can't. Just understand that some of us notice that you're not up to the task.
being given a warning through the eternal suffering of those on planet earth - presuming the eternal suffering is taking place on planet earth - who knows in your scenario.
Focus on the real issue of God's punishment and God's glory.
If you cannot address the points please get out of the way and let someone demonstrate to me where my apprehension of Isaiah 66:22-24 is misconstrued USING primarily Isaiah 66:22-24.