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14 Oct 16
2 edits
Originally posted by Nicksten
I asked God for happiness.
God said NO.
I give you blessings, happiness is up to you.
I like this classic Hymn which I think pinpoints a healthy relationship with God by A.B. Simpson:
Once It Was the Blessing (Now It is the Lord)
Music at https://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/h/513
Once it was the blessing,
Now it is the Lord;
Once it was the feeling,
Now it is His Word;
Once His gift I wanted,
Now, the Giver own;
Once I sought for healing,
Now Himself alone.
(chorus) All in all forever,
Only Christ I’ll sing;
Everything is in Christ,
And Christ is everything.
2
Once ’twas painful trying,
Now ’tis perfect trust;
Once a half salvation,
Now the uttermost;
Once ’twas ceaseless holding,
Now He holds me fast;
Once ’twas constant drifting,
Now my anchor’s cast.
3
Once ’twas busy planning,
Now ’tis trustful prayer;
Once ’twas anxious caring,
Now He has the care;
Once ’twas what I wanted,
Now what Jesus says;
Once ’twas constant asking,
Now ’tis ceaseless praise.
4
Once it was my working,
His it hence shall be;
Once I tried to use Him,
Now He uses me;
Once the pow’r I wanted,
Now the Mighty One;
Once for self I labored,
Now for Him alone.
5
Once I hoped in Jesus,
Now I know He’s mine;
Once my lamps were dying,
Now they brightly shine;
Once for death I waited,
Now His coming hail;
And my hopes are anchored
Safe within the veil.
15 Oct 16
Originally posted by twhiteheadWhat? You want to blame someone you don't believe in? And what did I admit to? Seriously you are putting words in my mouth I never said.
Yes, but now we know why. Its because of your God.
Interestingly God lied to you as you clearly admit now that despite widespread suffering the majority of people do not get closer to your God.
In the prayer God says "Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares and brings you closer to me." The POINT is, suffering is not a pointless pain, it is that "whatever" brings you closer to God is a blessing!
2 Corinthians 1:9 tells us that hardships and sufferings happen "so that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead."
1 Thessalonians 3:3 reminds us that we are "destined for trials." We don't have a choice whether we will suffer, our choice is to go through it by ourselves or with God.
So you are right in saying that the majority of people go through suffering by themselves, cause they chose to do so...find God, find peace!
15 Oct 16
Originally posted by NickstenNo, obviously not. What in my post suggested blame?
What? You want to blame someone you don't believe in?
And what did I admit to?
You admitted that a significant number of people, despite suffering, do not get closer to God.
Seriously you are putting words in my mouth I never said.
No, I am not. Try and follow.
In the prayer God says "Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares and brings you closer to me." The POINT is, suffering is not a pointless pain, it is that "whatever" brings you closer to God is a blessing!
But for a significant proportion of the worlds population, myself included, that simply isn't true. Therefore it is pointless for me.
Further, if that is the POINT of suffering, then God is a masochist. Surely he could come up with a more sensible method?
So you are right in saying that the majority of people go through suffering by themselves, ....
And a moment ago you denied holding this view and claimed I was putting words in your mouth.
16 Oct 16
Originally posted by twhiteheadLets play the "you said" and "I said" game to clear out your confusion here...
No, obviously not. What in my post suggested blame?
[b]And what did I admit to?
You admitted that a significant number of people, despite suffering, do not get closer to God.
Seriously you are putting words in my mouth I never said.
No, I am not. Try and follow.
In the prayer God says "Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares ...[text shortened]... b]
And a moment ago you denied holding this view and claimed I was putting words in your mouth.
Great King Rat posted:
"Indeed, suffering and religion go hand in hand."
My reply:
"Correction, a lot of people suffer, irrespective of religion!"
Then you (twhitehead) posted:
"Interestingly God lied to you as you clearly admit now that despite widespread suffering the majority of people do not get closer to your God."
Thus leaving me surprised cause you are firstly blaming God of lying, secondly technically saying "I said" that "despite widespread suffering the majority of people do not get closer to your God".
Uhm no! You said so.
Thereafter I clearly said that the majority of people go through suffering themselves, cause they chose do so - Thats not "my Gods" fault, its your own cause you respectfully don't know any better.
Then you insult God by calling Him a masochist. God is LOVE, and sometimes love hurts.
To answer your first question: "No, obviously not. What in my post suggested blame?"
This did: "Yes, but now we know why. Its because of your God."
Clearly!
You obviously have a different opinion around this, and on the plus side, it also looks like you blame God for your suffering....
It always has to be like "It's God's fault", it certainly couldn't be OUR fault right?
18 Oct 16
Originally posted by NickstenI didn't 'blame God of lying'. I stated that according to you, he lied. 'Blame' is completely the wrong word here.
Thus leaving me surprised cause you are firstly blaming God of lying,
secondly technically saying "I said" that "despite widespread suffering the majority of people do not get closer to your God".
Uhm no! You said so.
You essentially did say it. Not in those words, but you did say it, and you have repeated it since.
Do you deny that the sentence is correct and holds the same meaning as what you have said?
Then you insult God by calling Him a masochist.
Not an insult. A statement of fact based on the information you provided.
God is LOVE, and sometimes love hurts.
Thus masochist.
You obviously have a different opinion around this, and on the plus side, it also looks like you blame God for your suffering....
As you well know, I don't believe God exists. I do not blame God for anything. I am merely pointing out the inconsistencies in what you have said.
It always has to be like "It's God's fault", it certainly couldn't be OUR fault right?
You stated that God chooses not to relieve you of suffering because it brings you closer to God. You also admitted that this doesn't actually work in many cases. Although this doesn't imply God causes the suffering, it clearly does imply that God allows the suffering to continue for a really poor reason. So yes, if what you claim is true, then blame is in order. Luckily, what you say is not true.
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Originally posted by Nicksten
In the prayer God says "Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares and brings you closer to me." The POINT is, suffering is not a pointless pain, it is that "whatever" brings you closer to God is a blessing!
I noticed this morning "if we suffer with Him that we may also reign with Him" in Romans 8:17.
Everyone suffers. Christians can "suffer with Him." That means enjoy Christ as our grace as we pass through various unavoidable sufferings.
These help in our transformation into His image and preparation to enjoy the reward of reigning and being glorified with Him in the millennial kingdom. Eternal redemption is secured. Reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom is conditional upon suffering WITH Him.
" And if children, heirs also; on the one hand, heirs of God; on the other, joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him that we may also be glorified with Him." (Rom. 8:17)
Conditional glorification with Christ and co-inheriting with Christ BASED upon our willingness to "suffer with Him".
This has to pertain to the co-inheriting with Christ in glory in the 1,000 year millennial kingdom preceding the eternal age.
Again ...
" ... joint heirs with Christ, IF INDEED ... we SUFFER with Him THAT ... we may be GLORIFIED with Him."
Everyone suffers something in this life. Christians can cash in on all suffering by passing through it WITH Christ within as their grace and empowering support.
Try to make it to the end of this possibly longer post.
2 Corinthians 1:9 tells us that hardships and sufferings happen "so that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead."
Exactly. We may not expect the atheist to understand this. Everything pertaining to God they will invariably warp into an accusation against God as you see twhitehead doing.
To the Christian like Paul WITHIN the vessel of humanity is the treasure of divine life of God. But we are not use to living by that indwelling divine life. The unavoidable discomfort of this fallen world (and much more so if we are serving God) should press us into living by that indwelling life of Christ.
Paul describes Him as a "treasure in earthen vessels"
" For we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us.
We are pressed on every side but not constricted, unable to find a way out but not utterly without a way out ..." (2 Cor. 4:7,8)
The treasure within the earth vessel of the Christian's humanity is the resurrection life of the Son of God. It is Christ Himself distributed and implanted into millions of His people as "life giving Spirit" .
Atheists have an earthen vessel. But they have no living treasure within until they repent and receive the Lord Jesus. Talking to them about the benefit of our passing through sufferings with Christ is like playing a violin to a moose. It just makes no sense.
And again
1 Thessalonians 3:3 reminds us that we are "destined for trials." We don't have a choice whether we will suffer, our choice is to go through it by ourselves or with God.
Exactly. And we have the option to pass through them enjoying Christ as grace or doing it alone. Alone, I don't know how much benefit that could have. But with Christ, we gain Christ.
Along with the conditional co-glorification with Christ we see it also in Second Timothy
"Faithful is the word: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him.
If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He will also deny us;
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." (2 Tim. 2:11-13)
If we endure with Him, enjoying His empowering grace as our support, we will REIGN with Him. It is CONDITIONAL.
Suffer with Him will lead to being glorified with Him.
Enduring with Him will lead to reigning with Him.
Paul mastered this. He mastered living by the treasure put into his earthen vessel and releasing the excellency of the power of that treasure.
So you are right in saying that the majority of people go through suffering by themselves, cause they chose to do so...find God, find peace!
Eveyrday we human beings are passing through something. Not all suffering is great, Some is little suffering of a nuisance. But whether great or small," Man is born to trouble as sparks fly upwards."
We Christians have the unspeakable honor of passing through suffering WITH Christ in us. And the unbelievers have the opportunity for suffering to turn to Christ. Christ, in His victorious life and resurrection has overcome the world.
" These things I have spoken to you that in Me you may have peace.
In the world you have affliction, but take courage; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33)
Originally posted by twhiteheadMasochist means to hurt or punish either themselves or others and enjoys it like would like to spend their free time and energy on it.
I didn't 'blame God of lying'. I stated that according to you, he lied. 'Blame' is completely the wrong word here.
[b] secondly technically saying "I said" that "despite widespread suffering the majority of people do not get closer to your God".
Uhm no! You said so.
You essentially did say it. Not in those words, but you did say it, and you hav ...[text shortened]... n. So yes, if what you claim is true, then blame is in order. Luckily, what you say is not true.[/b]
Love and justice can act in ways where the person who is the judge, jury or executioner is just doing their job and does not enjoy the punishing and does not devote any of their free time or energy to it outside of work that needs to be done.
If God is a judge and policeman and executioner of justice he can be that without being a masochist.
Stealing is not wrong if you own everything.
Vengeance is not wrong if you are The Supreme Justice.
19 Oct 16
2 edits
Originally posted by tutachessBut the OP and subsequent posts clearly indicate God is a masochist. He allows suffering to continue for no good reason.
If God is a judge and policeman and executioner of justice he can be that without being a masochist.
Stealing is not wrong if you own everything.
Stealing is not stealing if you own everything.
Vengeance is not wrong if you are The Supreme Justice.
Vengeance is always wrong. Jesus specifically says so when saying you should turn the other cheek.
Its also odd that you now consider love to be 'vengeance' and also put allowing suffering in order to bring people closer to God 'vengeance'.
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19 Oct 16
3 edits
Originally posted by twhitehead
Vengeance is always wrong. Jesus specifically says so when saying you should turn the other cheek.
Its also odd that you now consider love to be 'vengeance' and also put allowing suffering in order to bring people closer to God 'vengeance'.
You are referring to words spoken by Jesus in Matthew 5:39.
" But I tell you not to resist him who is evil; rather whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other cheek."
A few verses latter Jesus says that His disciples will have "enemies".
" But I say to you, Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you." (v.44)
By loving and praying for their enemies the disciples will be manifested as sons of God.
" ... so that you may become sons of your Father who is in the heavens, because he causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the just and the unjust." (v45)
Latter in Christ's teaching He does say that God will take up the cause of punishing the persecutors, enemies, and adversaries of His children. God will take vengence on behalf of His mistreated people who have loved and turned the cheek in meekness.
This teaching is in Luke 18:1-8 in the parable of the persistent widow who petitions the judge repeatedly to vindicate her against her adversary. The conclusion is stated:
"And will not God by all means carry out the AVENGING of His chosen ones, who cry to Him day and night, though He is long-suffering over them ?
I tell you that He will carry out THEIR AVENGING quickly...." (vs.7,8)
Avenging is not always wrong. Vengeance can be justified as the righteous Judge will carry out some on our behalf as believers.
19 Oct 16
Originally posted by sonshipVery well explained. I sometimes do not always have the right words at the right time. It is hard to try and explain to twhitehead that suffering is not an act of masochism from God.In the prayer God says "Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares and brings you closer to me." The POINT is, suffering is not a pointless pain, it is that "whatever" brings you closer to God is a blessing!
I noticed this morning [b]"if we suffer with Him that we may also reign with Him" in Romans 8:17.
Everyone suff ...[text shortened]... ld you have affliction, but take courage; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33) [/b] [/quote][/b]
Even as a Christian I don't always understand why I have to hurt/suffer so much but I know those are the times I spend seeking Him more often - its just what I do.
19 Oct 16
Originally posted by NickstenHis rod AND His staff comfort me.
Very well explained. I sometimes do not always have the right words at the right time. It is hard to try and explain to twhitehead that suffering is not an act of masochism from God.
Even as a Christian I don't always understand why I have to hurt/suffer so much but I know those are the times I spend seeking Him more often - its just what I do.
🙂
19 Oct 16
Originally posted by tutachessAgreed. I don't think twhitehead understands the correct meaning of masochist - and it surely does not apply to God.
Masochist means to hurt or punish either themselves or others and enjoys it like would like to spend their free time and energy on it.
Love and justice can act in ways where the person who is the judge, jury or executioner is just doing their job and does not enjoy the punishing and does not devote any of their free time or energy to it outside of work ...[text shortened]... ling is not wrong if you own everything.
Vengeance is not wrong if you are The Supreme Justice.
By definition, I would guess that twhitehead would consider me being a masochist for spanking my kids for being naughty.