19 Jun 09
Originally posted by Bosse de NageKeeping not score, not looking to be richer, afraid not to lose, having abandon the slightest interest of your ego -then you ’re free and that's all. One can hardly find such an attitude in the Christian tradition -it seems to me the Christians are too ...sinful and commited to follow somebody elses' footprints to break at last free😵
What would the Christian equivalent of koans be? The parables, I guess -- anything later come to mind? (I think every tradition is bound to throw up such stories at some point. I dislike the tendency within myself to reject Christian tradition merely because it is Christian, yet I am more familiar with sufi and Zen literature.)
19 Jun 09
Originally posted by black beetleKeeping not score, not looking to be richer, afraid not to lose, having abandon the slightest interest of your ego
Keeping not score, not looking to be richer, afraid not to lose, having abandon the slightest interest of your ego -then you ’re free and that's all. One can hardly find such an attitude in the Christian tradition -it seems to me the Christians are too ...sinful and commited to follow somebody elses' footprints to break at last free😵
but beetle this is the very essence of Christianity, which is why ol Nietzsche was so incensed, for to him we were contemptible losers, unwilling to better our lot in life, not choosing poverty but using it as a poor excuse for lack of worldly success, defeated without a fight!
19 Jun 09
Originally posted by black beetleCertain Christian texts contradict your statement -- The Cloud of Unknowing and Pearl come to mind -- but they are quite long, lacking the punchiness of the koan.
Keeping not score, not looking to be richer, afraid not to lose, having abandon the slightest interest of your ego -then you ’re free and that's all. One can hardly find such an attitude in the Christian tradition -it seems to me the Christians are too ...sinful and commited to follow somebody elses' footprints to break at last free😵
('The Cloud of Unknowing' is also a pretty tune by James Blackshaw:
19 Jun 09
Does 'The Thunder, Perfect Mind' qualify, I wonder.
For I am knowledge and ignorance.
I am shame and boldness.
I am shameless; I am ashamed.
I am strength and I am fear.
I am war and peace.
Give heed to me.
I am the one who is disgraced and the great one.
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/thunder.html
19 Jun 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOh you 'll get no direction from me😵
Keeping not score, not looking to be richer, afraid not to lose, having abandon the slightest interest of your ego
but beetle this is the very essence of Christianity, which is why ol Nietzsche was so incensed, for to him we were contemptible losers, unwilling to better our lot in life, not choosing poverty but using it as a poor excuse for lack of worldly success, defeated without a fight!
19 Jun 09
Originally posted by Bosse de NageToo much jabber and theism in The Cloud for the taste of this miserable black scarab -the most I can afford is Sufism I reckon; lean and sharp mind-to-mind awareness works better in my case😵
Certain Christian texts contradict your statement -- The Cloud of Unknowing and Pearl come to mind -- but they are quite long, lacking the punchiness of the koan.
('The Cloud of Unknowing' is also a pretty tune by James Blackshaw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xE7FC6moUY
19 Jun 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieCome on now Rabbie!
Keeping not score, not looking to be richer, afraid not to lose, having abandon the slightest interest of your ego
but beetle this is the very essence of Christianity, which is why ol Nietzsche was so incensed, for to him we were contemptible losers, unwilling to better our lot in life, not choosing poverty but using it as a poor excuse for lack of worldly success, defeated without a fight!
I think the Churches of every religion are rich whilst their believers are hungry; and the higher priests are keeping score during their struggle for power and for money; and the leaders of the religions are still afar from a general consensus and they reject everything but their very own doctrines; and the people, regardless their religion, they do keep score and they do whatever they can in order to feed and satisfy their ego;
Solving chess problems is by far better than any religious doctrine I reckon, and I love to do my chores😵
19 Jun 09
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Originally posted by Bosse de NageWell, I think there are koans as one-liners in the biblical texts—such as: “I am that I am” (which can also be translated as “I will be as I will be” ); or perhaps “God is agape” (ho theos agape estin, in which both theos and agape are in the nominative case).
What would the Christian equivalent of koans be? The parables, I guess -- anything later come to mind? (I think every tradition is bound to throw up such stories at some point. I dislike the tendency within myself to reject Christian tradition merely because it is Christian, yet I am more familiar with sufi and Zen literature.)
One could also take a look at Meister Eckhart, whose sermons are riddled with koanic one-liners (Matthew Fox extracted many of them in his little book Meditations With Meister Eckhart.) Both Zennists such as D.T. Suzuki and Sufis such as Reza Shah-Kazemi (a recent discovery for me; I am currently revisting the Sufis) recognize Eckhart as a kindred spirit.
Unlike Zen, in Judaism, Christianity and Islam (here, Sufism is what I am most familiar with), koans need to be discovered within the larger text. (Fakhruddin Iraqi's Divine Flashes can read like a string of Sufic-koanic pearls.)
19 Jun 09
Originally posted by vistesdGood answer. I was thinking of Eckhart too. And you could find 'koans' in S. Juan de la Cruz and S. Francis too no doubt. And among Greek writers? I've not read any (un)Orthodox Greek writers from after Gnostic times.
Unlike Zen, in Judaism, Christianity and Islam (here, Sufism is what I am most familiar with), koans need to be discovered within the larger text. (Fakhruddin Iraqi's Divine Flashes can read like a string of Sufic-koanic pearls.)
Was the koan a Japanese contribution?
19 Jun 09
Originally posted by Bosse de NageI forgot San Juan de la Cruz. And you are right to put ‘koan’ in quotes (which I did not), as, formally, it is a Zen thing.
Good answer. I was thinking of Eckhart too. And you could find 'koans' in S. Juan de la Cruz and S. Francis too no doubt. And among Greek writers? I've not read any (un)Orthodox Greek writers from after Gnostic times.
Was the koan a Japanese contribution?
The Japanese word koan comes from the Chinese word kung-an; the method was developed by the Chinese Chan (“Zen” ) masters.
Hope all is well with you and yours, old friend!