22 May 15
1 edit
Originally posted by Proper KnobGod is incapable of sin. Man is capable of sin.
What you are saying is that even though we, as humans, are instructed in scripture to avoid submitting to the actions of jealousy/envy and wrath/anger (because let's not forget that anger/wrath is another deadly sin the God of the Bible suffers from) God can do what he likes. 'Do as I say and not as I do'.
Originally posted by chaney3I believe Jesus Christ is the Word of God made flesh, God's Word who came to live
This is my FIRST post.....I read the Spirituality threads often, but never reply. However, this issue is something that has plagued me for about 10 years now. I have always considered myself a Christian....but blindly went through life not realizing that a lot of Christians worship Jesus as God. You may laugh, but I was missing that part until about 10 ye ...[text shortened]... am certain that there is a Creator.....but I feel that I don't know anymore who that Creator is.
among us as a human setting aside all the divine to become as weak as we are. He did
that just so He could be tempted as one of us in everyway, He did not turn His Godhood
on and off as He wanted when He walked among us.
I believe He did this so we could grasp who God is and also be the one who could
stand between us and God the Father representing both, and took all the guilt we have
upon Himself so we could be righteous before God in Him.
God loves us and understands us and our struggles, and has made away for us to know
Him. I would just point you to Jesus Himself, and tell you that you don't need me to go
to Him. Jesus Christ can be found in the here and now, not in the by and by, and if you
want to relationship with God, where perfect love casts out your fear, then go to God.
He didn't die and raise from the dead just so you could be scared of Him and stay away, but
that you and He could have something much more precious than anything this life as to
offer. The great thing about this too, all you need to be is your honest self, He provides
all that is required, so go and ask for what He wants you to have even more than you
want it.
22 May 15
I think the Trinity is where my 'personal' issue applies. Three Gods in one??? There was no such thing as the Trinity (I think) in the Old Testament, where the 1st Commandment was given. It seemed clear that the God of Abraham is the God you are supposed to worship. Then Jesus appears in the New Testament, along with the Holy Spirit, and now....there are 3 Gods. Who gets the worship?? God the Father, or God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit??
You started 2 of your paragraphs with "I believe". I don't currently share that belief, I don't think. I admitted my ignorance and lack of understanding in my initial post.
This post started as God being a 'jealous God', and I am certain that the Trinity is where my frustration originates. Forget about worrying about all of the other religions, who all have their own gods.....the Trinity has enough troubles for me.
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23 May 15
1 edit
Originally posted by Proper Knob
What you are saying is that even though we, as humans, are instructed in scripture to avoid submitting to the actions of jealousy/envy and wrath/anger (because let's not forget that anger/wrath is another deadly sin the God of the Bible suffers from) God can do what he likes. 'Do as I say and not as I do'.
What you are saying is that even though we, as humans, are instructed in scripture to avoid submitting to the actions of jealousy/envy and wrath/anger (because let's not forget that anger/wrath is another deadly sin the God of the Bible suffers from) God can do what he likes. 'Do as I say and not as I do'.
Anger of itself can be justifiable. That is why it says "Be angry and do not sin." (Eph. 4:26)
I was wondering is your honest question would soon develop into a standard antsiest attack on God. Well it was a question I would ask. And in fact I did.
The fact of the matter is that sometimes we are NOT to do as our parents DO.
At four I cannot drive a car.
At six I cannot stay up all night.
At fourteen I cannot bring a girl home in my bedroom.
There are quite a few things that my mom and dad could do which I as a youngster could not be permitted to do.
The level of human life of my parents was deeper, wider, more, more experienced and bearing more responsibility with accompanying privileges than I.
(because let's not forget that anger/wrath is another deadly sin the God of the Bible suffers from) God can do what he likes.
Can you locate for me the phrase "deadly sins" anywhere in the Bible?
Can you locate the phrase "seven deadly sins" in the Bible?
This doesn't sound like something you read in the Bible.
It sounds like a tradition perhaps of Catholicism - "the seven deadly sins".
I could be wrong. I never saw the phrase "seven deadly sins" which you are so eager for me to "remember." I think it starts to become clearer as one READS the Scripture instead of just goes by religious traditions one has heard.
"Oh let's not forget now - the seven DEADLY sins!"
Very good. Let's not forget that we should want to go to the source - the Bible itself to see what is there being said. Creeds, traditions, pious formulas, sanctimonious little axioms can wait. Let's see what is actually in the Bible first off.
So we have "Be angry and sin not". So anger in and of itself may not be a sin.
"God can do whatever God likes. But ME, I have to be restricted under this unfair despot who wants to rob me of my fullest potential and well being."
I see God as our Heavenly Father as Jesus spoke. And a father of the earthly sort does have responsibilities that I do not have. Yes, it is wrong to not lead by example. And for sure children will remember what you DID far more than how you TAUGHT.
You are laying the ground work of children to think there is absolutely no difference in their permitted actions as the adult parents who are over them. I don't think you should stretch the matter of leading by example, unsoberly to an extreme.
Kids should not get married at twelve. They should not argue that "What is this? Do as I say do but not as I do?" You are exploiting the matter.
Actually the whole revelation of the Bible is not "So as I say do". "It is love Me and receive Me into you so that I can live in oneness with you." It is drawing close to God to be infused with His presence as a blended influence much like a branch grated into a tree.
In coming posts I will show that this is even true with the receiving of the law of Moses in the Old Testament. To be like Him we first have to love Him. Before "I will do all that God says" there must be "I will love God and draw close to God."
Let's not forget that the Bible comes to a climax with God and a people who match Him as a married partner sharing His life and nature - The New Jerusalem. It is ultimately a matter of man living in an "organic" unity and blending with God - like Jesus was a mingling of God and man.
23 May 15
Originally posted by chaney3It is One God, my word is a part of me it isn't a different life force.
I think the Trinity is where my 'personal' issue applies. Three Gods in one??? There was no such thing as the Trinity (I think) in the Old Testament, where the 1st Commandment was given. It seemed clear that the God of Abraham is the God you are supposed to worship. Then Jesus appears in the New Testament, along with the Holy Spirit, and now....there are ...[text shortened]... of the other religions, who all have their own gods.....the Trinity has enough troubles for me.
23 May 15
Originally posted by chaney3Yes, I started 2 of my paragraphs with "I believe" and no matter what you settle on that is
I think the Trinity is where my 'personal' issue applies. Three Gods in one??? There was no such thing as the Trinity (I think) in the Old Testament, where the 1st Commandment was given. It seemed clear that the God of Abraham is the God you are supposed to worship. Then Jesus appears in the New Testament, along with the Holy Spirit, and now....there are ...[text shortened]... of the other religions, who all have their own gods.....the Trinity has enough troubles for me.
all you'll ever be able to do as well. If you as a finite individual are upset that you cannot
grasp the infinite God, I don’t think that is ever going to change. Like I said, God loves you
and has shown you that in so many ways. So if you want to get it right, study and ask God to
show you, if you don’t get an answer on that topic I’d just trust God’s grace over your
concerns.
23 May 15
Originally posted by chaney3You will find several differing viewpoints in this forum and a lot of heated debate over them. Don't let the heated debate put you off! Listen to all the views and make up your own mind until more insight becomes available to you.
I think the Trinity is where my 'personal' issue applies. Three Gods in one??? There was no such thing as the Trinity (I think) in the Old Testament, where the 1st Commandment was given. It seemed clear that the God of Abraham is the God you are supposed to worship. Then Jesus appears in the New Testament, along with the Holy Spirit, and now....there are ...[text shortened]... of the other religions, who all have their own gods.....the Trinity has enough troubles for me.
I am an independent (non denominational) Christian who is open minded about many things but am convinced about the deity of Jesus Christ according to a holistic view of scripture.
There are a number of pieces to consider:
- Can God be a man and still be God?
- Is scripture consistent about the Godhead?
- Is a multi-person Godhead described in scripture and is it in keeping with the entirety of scripture?
Everywhere throughout the Old Testament it says:
Hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one
The bible never once mentions 3 in 1 or 1 in 3, or indeed the words "trinity", "triune" nor does it ever say "God the Son", "the eternal Son", "God the Holy Spirit"
However it does say many times "God is ONE"
Regarding the deity of Christ...
Colossians 2:8-10
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority...
And...
Isaiah 9: 6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
So the OT confirms that the ONE God will be revealed as the child and that he will bear ALL the titles of God. Councillor (spirit), Mighty God (authority and power), Father (who Jesus prayed to), prince of peace.
Furthermore looks at Jesus commands to his disciples regarding his NAME:
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name [SINGULAR] of the Father and [SAME NAME] the Son and [SAME NAME] the Holy Spirit...
So what did the disciples do? The unilaterally baptised everyone in the name of Jesus Christ. NEVER in the name of "the father the son and the Holy Spirit. NEVER. They new exactly what he was saying.
Jesus proclaimed himself to be the "image of the invisible God and the exact representation of his being" EXACT. The fullness of the Godhead in a human being. That's why they killed him.
The same God is manifested in a number of ways, but it is always the ONE and same God. There is only ONE God and he "will not give his glory to another" read Isaiah again he is absolutely adamant that God is ONE, he is the saviour himself and besides him there is no other.
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23 May 15
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Originally posted by chaney3
I am quite confused about my faith these days, so take it easy on me. I must admit, that at this time....I am certain that there is a Creator.....but I feel that I don't know anymore who that Creator is.
God is courting us as a man courts a woman. This is the reason He spoke of being "a jealous God". I think "jealous" is a good word there in Exodus 20:5.
Our becomming one with God involves our loving God. You may be perplexed about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But you surely can tell God that you love Him. You can say "Lord Jesus, I do love you." You need not wait to be conversant in theology to tell the Father and/or the Son that you love Him.
Loving Jesus this way, we receive His life supply to live in oneness with Jesus. I would encourage you to think of "worship" more in terms of loving this One. You frequently tell the Lord Jesus that you just love Him. And He will supply you with His life. This is the true worship.
This loving of God leads to the growth of God's life within us. Through our affectionate love of the Lord Jesus, we are supplied with spiritual life. The growth of this life within our life causes God to be built up in us and between us and other Christians.
Loving God as our Husband and experiencing His life and nature being dispensed into us we shall more and more become ones to express Him. We are seeking lovers of God like the seeking woman for her beloved in the book of the Song of Songs.
When you wake up in the morning say "Lord Jesus, I love You. Lord, I just love You." Tell Him that you love Him whether you feel up or feel down. And if you feel cold toward God, then tell Him "Lord Jesus, I thank You that You love me so. Lord God, I know that you just love me."
You are perplexed about theological matters which can really be put aside for awhile. The temptation for knowledge is great. But the growth of God's life within is watered by our loving God. And by and by our loving God will bring us into oneness with God and spontaneously we live out the law of God from simple reflex.
Loving God is the excellent "worship" of God that I think you should more deeply practice.
23 May 15
Originally posted by sonshipA standard anitheist attack on God? Good grief. You mean I asked a couple of questions.What you are saying is that even though we, as humans, are instructed in scripture to avoid submitting to the actions of jealousy/envy and wrath/anger (because let's not forget that anger/wrath is another deadly sin the God of the Bible suffers from) God can do what he likes. 'Do as I say and not as I do'.
Anger of itself can be justifia ...[text shortened]... n living in an "organic" unity and blending with God - like Jesus was a mingling of God and man.
I guess the phrase 'deadly sins' doesn't appear in the Bible. But neither does the phrase 'the trinity' so you'd be wise not to go down that route. 🙂
Again, how can a perfect being suffer from such base human emotions as anger and jealousy? Seems odd to me. Correct me if I'm wrong but your answer just seems to be - it's beyond our understanding.
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23 May 15
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Originally posted by divegeester
There are a number of pieces to consider:
- Can God be a man and still be God?
- Is scripture consistent about the Godhead?
- Is a multi-person Godhead described in scripture and is it in keeping with the entirety of scripture?
Everywhere throughout the Old Testament it says:
Hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one
The bible never once mentions 3 in 1 or 1 in 3, or indeed the words "trinity", "triune" nor does it ever say "God the Son", "the eternal Son", "God the Holy Spirit"
However it does say many times "God is ONE"
Are you telling the whole story?
I have been wondering how I can make commenting here flow with the OP of my thread. It won't be easy and will probably sound forced.
But we should tell the whole story of what God has revealed and not just the parts we prefer.
For example:
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
"We" there, whether we like it or don't like it, HAS to refer to the Father and the Son. The matter of God's being is rather mysterious, isn't it?
"We [Father and Son] will come to him and make an abode with him."
The God Who is ONE says "WE ... will come to him"
Then we have John 17:21
That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe." (John 17:21)
Regardless of how we shuffle feet and shift about in our seat, Jesus here speaks of the Father and the Son as "Us"
" ... that they also may be in Us [the Son and the Father]
The God Who is ONE is "We".
And the God Who is ONE is "Us".
How about we just say "Praise the Lord. Praise our mysterious One-Us, One-We God!" ?
Then again in John 17:22 we have the "We" Divine Being again.
And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one ..." (v.22)
The "We" of the Father and the Son who comes to make an abode with the lovers of Jesus, is here again. And the God Who is ONE is also the "We" into whom Christ brings us.
So though "trinity" is not a word found in Scripture, we can sympathize with the brothers defending the truth with being FORCED to come up with some expression to declare the undeclarable.
Romans 8:9-11 is not a systematized theological formula. It is "shop talk" to some Christians about their subjective enjoyment of God. It is practical fellowship about the 'We" of John 14:23 Who has come to indwell the Christians in their subjective experience.
And they can detect no difference subjectively between the Three of the Triune God. Terms are used interchangeably to demonstrate that each lives in the other.
" But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, [the human regenerated spirit] if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." (verse 9a)
Okay. The Spirit of God dwells in us the Chrisians. So far so good.
Paul goes on -
" ... if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you, Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him." (verse 9b)
Okay. "The Spirit of God" is apparently the same one as "the Spirit of Christ.". Okay. And Paul goes on -
" if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit [human regenerated spirit] is life because of righteousness." (9b-10)
Now we have "the Spirit of Christ" is interchangeably used with "Christ" Himself. Christ is in the believers. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ and both are "Christ".
The God Who is ONE, is the Divine "We" coming to make an abode with Christ's lovers. And He is "the Spirit of God" who is "the Spirit of Christ" who is "Christ".
Now Paul goes on even further.
"But if Christ is in you ... And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (v.10b,11)
Now "Christ" is also "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead." The Bible says the Father raised Jesus from the dead - (Acts 2:24, 32; 10:40; Gal. 1:1) .
In Paul's experiencial "shop talk" of the Christians' subjective experience of having God indwell them - "Christ" is also "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead" . And that One is "the Spirit of Christ" Who is also "the Spirit of God". And they are the Divine "We", the indwelling One, Who comes to make an abode in the lovers of Christ.
So God is three-one. And though we cannot fully explain this we can detect no difference subjectively (Romans 8:9-11) but we can ENJOY the reality of God.
23 May 15
Can you locate the phrase "seven deadly sins" in the Bible? This doesn't sound like something you read in the Bible.1 John 5:16-17. There is such a thing as deadly sin, which entails maximum culpability and falling out of grace. Whereas venial sin does not entail as much gravity. An early Church monastic, Evagrius Ponticus, was influential in developing the list of sins or afflictions. It is wise to consort the Word of God in sacred history.