A Question For Theists

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
until his son was born, god violated his nature all over the place.

vengeance,
unless his nature was to be evil. in which case the birth of a son caused him to violate his nature then by being a much nicer guy.


or maybe, and this is a wild thought, god has actually free will and he can do whatever he damn well chooses. a human can be good or evil o and god cannot? morevover since he created us, he was able to give us an ability he never had?

I am curious about people who charge the God of the Bible with such serious charges.

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genocides, suffering, random punishments of innocents.
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What are your leanings towards the millions of abortions practiced by modern man ?

Do you tend to argue for pro-life or for pro-choice ?

Here's your chance to shine out your consistency.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
If you think that God has ever violated His nature, only three possible explanations are available. Either you don't know history, i.e., what actually happened; or, you don't know His nature; or, both.

well then love. what do you call god asking the jews to kill every single living soul in jericho?

what do you call the obliteration of sodomah and gomorrah? the noah flood?

asking abe to kill his own son?

i don't think that god violated his nature really. i only think that some people (barbarian jews shepherds from 4000 years ago) violated history truth and everything that is holy.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
well then love. what do you call god asking the jews to kill every single living soul in jericho?

what do you call the obliteration of sodomah and gomorrah? the noah flood?

asking abe to kill his own son?

i don't think that god violated his nature really. i only think that some people (barbarian jews shepherds from 4000 years ago) violated history truth and everything that is holy.

God didn't ask the Jews to do anything. He commanded them to do so. Since you find it so curious, why not do an in-depth study of the entire history of the situation? Ditto for S/G and the Flood. I'm betting you find it a heck of a lot more illuminating than assuming a position.

After all, what is your standard of love based on, exactly?

Originally posted by jaywill
I am curious about people who charge the God of the Bible with such serious charges.

[b]=============================
genocides, suffering, random punishments of innocents.
==================================

What is your leanings toward abortion?

Do you tend to vote pro-life or pro-choice ?

Here's your chance to shine out your consistency.[/b]

i fail to see why my stance on abortion has anything to do with showing or dismissing my consistency but here goes:

i don't have a black and white view on abortion, like i am not 100% liberal or conservative.

basically, if 2 people are careless enough to get babied, they are required to have it and then give it for adoption or whatever. but if the baby is at a high risk of genetic diseases, if it endangeres the life of the mother, if it is a result of rape, and some other cases i haven't thought of, it is the mother's right to choose abortion.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
God didn't ask the Jews to do anything. He commanded them to do so. Since you find it so curious, why not do an in-depth study of the entire history of the situation? Ditto for S/G and the Flood. I'm betting you find it a heck of a lot more illuminating than assuming a position.

After all, what is your standard of love based on, exactly?

oh i am sorry, god ordered the jews to do the killing. it is much better. it changes a lot about my claim he contradicted his nature. no wait, no it doesn't.


no decent christian would claim that the god who sent his son to tell us to turn the other cheek and love our enemies would tell us to have some people killed because they are not important enough to live.

no sane person would believe that the god that sent his son to teach everyone, including the pagans, could be saved is the same god that said any idol whorshipper deserved to be killed.

no sane person would think that the god who took the trouble to sent his only son to teach the murdering barbarians love and peace, would wipe up entire populations of humans because he couldn't be bothered showing them the light (flood, sodomah and gomorrah, the purging of canaan, etc)

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
oh i am sorry, god ordered the jews to do the killing. it is much better. it changes a lot about my claim he contradicted his nature. no wait, no it doesn't.


no decent christian would claim that the god who sent his son to tell us to turn the other cheek and love our enemies would tell us to have some people killed because they are not important enough ...[text shortened]... t be bothered showing them the light (flood, sodomah and gomorrah, the purging of canaan, etc)

So now the goal post moved from love to sanity. Make up your mind, will ya? What's the standard going to be?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
well then love. what do you call god asking the jews to kill every single living soul in jericho?

what do you call the obliteration of sodomah and gomorrah? the noah flood?

asking abe to kill his own son?

i don't think that god violated his nature really. i only think that some people (barbarian jews shepherds from 4000 years ago) violated history truth and everything that is holy.

Hmmm. Why don't you read the story of Jericho again. This time pay some attention to what happened to a harlot named Rehab and her family's entire house of prostitution.

What happened to Rehab and her family in the destruction of Jericho ?

I think it is a lesson of God's mercy in the midst of His judgment. I think it is typology pointing to His plan of salvation.

Originally posted by jaywill
I don't trust your evaluation. Perhaps its because I read the entire Bible carefully or keep reading on.


[b]==================================
vengeance,
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The very occasion for vengence, that against Cain for murdering his brother Avbel, God forbides that anyone would take vengence on Cain ...[text shortened]... aithfully recorded prevents me from getting a simplistic biased view such as you push.[/b]

---vengeance---
actually, cain isn't worried about vengeance, he is simply worried someone will kill him. god forbids anyone to kill him because he wants cain punished. he wants him to walk the earth alone. (i fail to realize who would be killing him since the only people on the earth were his parents, but moving on)
and of course, he again threatened with vengeance anyone who would hurt cain.

sure vengeance is seen as another word for punishment. the OT is full of punishment whereas the NT is more about repentance and forgiving.

----genocides----
what do you call the purging of canaan, noahs flood, soddomah and gomorrah? collective retiring of flawed products?

and how come god doesn't smite the red light district in amsterdam? or whatever other "cesspits of moral corruption" exist elsewhere?

jesus however doesn't amputate. did god went to medical school and abandoned medieval medicing when he had a son?

"Hebrew kings of the nation of Jehovah had a reputation in Canaan of being "merciful" kings"
actually they were murdering pricks, hence the genocide thingy and blaming it on god. it is so much easier to rule a conquered nation if you just kill everyone and only keep the land. and saying "god ordered it" is great PR.

"Maybe you're biased."
maybe i am not. it is not like i am saying they weren't all murdering bastards. it was hard not to be in those times. but by today's standards they were well miniature hitlers.

---suffering---
how long was the desert hike of moses and his people? 40 years? how supportive was god for job? who was responsible for job suffering?

---random punishments of innocents. ---
what do you call the "cursed until the 7th generation?"
what do you call "have him and all his family including his dog and second degree cousins put to death"
what do you call the killing of children during sodomah and the flood? were the children gangrenous too?

maybe we should call it "inevitable collateral smiting casualties". sounds much better than inocents getting killed.

Nor would I regard all misfortune as punishment.

Nor would I regard all puniushment as having no final condstructive outcome for the advanced betterment of those under punishment.
so the final constructive outcome for job was? he was better for having suffered? when he was quite an ok guy before?
what was the constructive outcome of the flood? to start over and remake a world as wicked as before?

I am glad that the Bible covers centries of God's dealings with people in various situations. The variety of cases faithfully recorded prevents me from getting a simplistic biased view such as you push.
faithfully recorded? dealings with people in various situations?

simplistic view?
the ot god killed and destroyed and then he sent his son to tell anyone not to kill and destroy anymore? you are right, this isn't simple, its a contradiction

Originally posted by jaywill
Hmmm. Why don't you read the story of Jericho again. This time pay some attention to what happened to a harlot named Rehab and her family's entire house of prostitution.

What happened to Rehab and her family in the destruction of Jericho ?

I think it is a lesson of God's mercy in the midst of His judgment. I think it is typology pointing to His plan of salvation.

yes, it is an example of mercy.

a harlot named rehab betrayed her people and harboured jewish spies in return of having her hide spared. she then lied to her people, didn't warn them and hid like a spineless coward in her home while the children of her people and her people were being butchered around her.

wonderful story😀 only where you see mercy i see betrayal cowardice and murder. poh-teh-to poh-tah-to

totally what jesus would have done as well.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
So now the goal post moved from love to sanity. Make up your mind, will ya? What's the standard going to be?

i thought i made myself clear.

jesus: love

ot god as portrayed by murderous barbarians trying to justify their conquering of a nation and building a civilization: insanity.



for the last time, i don't blame the israelites. i just find it insane that a religion based on love and peace from the jesus man would put any stock into the gruesome horror stories that some passages of the bible are.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
i thought i made myself clear.

jesus: love

ot god as portrayed by murderous barbarians trying to justify their conquering of a nation and building a civilization: insanity.



for the last time, i don't blame the israelites. i just find it insane that a religion based on love and peace from the jesus man would put any stock into the gruesome horror stories that some passages of the bible are.

i thought i made myself clear.

for the last time, i don't blame the israelites.

i don't think that god violated his nature really. i only think that some people (barbarian jews shepherds from 4000 years ago) violated history truth and everything that is holy.

Well, about as clear as mud, I guess.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
---vengeance---
actually, cain isn't worried about vengeance, he is simply worried someone will kill him. god forbids anyone to kill him because he wants cain punished. he wants him to walk the earth alone. (i fail to realize who would be killing him since the only people on the earth were his parents, but moving on)...

Because God forbids others to kill Cain, the story is implying that there are other humans that exist besides Adam, Eve, Abel, and Cain.

I think that Jesus borrows heavily from this example. To me it is the clearest Biblical example against capital punishment. In the very first murder in the Bible it would seem that penalty by death is in order and yet by God's word that's not how it pans out.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
i fail to see why my stance on abortion has anything to do with showing or dismissing my consistency but here goes:

i don't have a black and white view on abortion, like i am not 100% liberal or conservative.

basically, if 2 people are careless enough to get babied, they are required to have it and then give it for adoption or whatever. but if the bab ...[text shortened]... rape, and some other cases i haven't thought of, it is the mother's right to choose abortion.

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i don't have a black and white view on abortion, like i am not 100% liberal or conservative.
==============================

I respect that. But you seem to have a very "black and white" criticism of God.

You seemed pretty 100% cock sure that God should be condemned for taking a drastic action that some society's children should be killed.

If you are willing to give old man at least a benefit of a doubt that just maybe there is some justification for a childs termination, why not an all knowing Creator ?

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basically, if 2 people are careless enough to get babied, they are required to have it and then give it for adoption or whatever.
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OKay. Let's go back to Canaan. Could you possibly envision a society that might purposely have children, say, to consecrate them to demons, occult activities, or to Satan ?

You see, I think the Bible shows us that a society could actually get so bad that the spread of its philosophies could enganger the whole human race.

You don't know how persuasive and powerful those practices had become. I do not know all the facts. But if there were instances of God judging such a society so harshly, I believe as Abraham said -

"Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly ?"

An unrighteous Eternal God who has to sit at my feet and learn a lesson or two about right moral actions, makes little sense to me.

Who is your umpire that you will get to correct the Ultimate Governor of all creation? Is it you ?

Did you create yourself ? How is it that the created thing surpasses the Creating One in quality ?

Maybe you're missing something in your evaluation which God in His infinity and eternal being does not lack.

Many years ago I faulted God for many things. Today I fault God for less things. Somewhere inbetween I got a little deeper perspective as a result of living unto God.

Now there are still some things that I do not understand. But the past convinces me that probably one day I will see everything through the eyes of my Creator.

I expect that in the end two things will occur. God will say to some of us.

"You were wrong. But I was right."

And on some other very difficult issues God may say:

"I was right. But you were right also."

The destruction of Sodom or Gamorah, Jerico or the Amalikites may indeed be terrible. But there may be other things known to God better than are known to us which justified His action.

I would be suspicious of a Bible which contained actions of God ONLY with which I was in complete agreement. I expect that there would be some instances in which I do not understand His action, now.

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but if the baby is at a high risk of genetic diseases, if it endangeres the life of the mother, if it is a result of rape, and some other cases i haven't thought of, it is the mother's right to choose abortion.
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Really HARD decisions to make, aren't they?

My belief is that the moral buck stops somewhere. Somewhere is Someone for Whom the right decision is that one's responsibility.

My belief is that the Bible is a revelation of the God for whom FINAL moral decisions rests. I think God is one for which a greater or more right being cannot be imagined.

I do not fault anyone for being appalled at the destruction of some ancient Canaanite society. I trust that the Ultimate Governor of creation did so righteously.

It was not in all cases that judgment was so terribly severe. The few cases in which it was, there must have been sufficient reason.

In Genesis God told Abraham that He would not bring the Israelites into Canaan because the Amorites had not gotten bad enough yet. In other words the people did not yet merit a total destruction. God knew that in another 400 years, if they did not repent, they would have reached rock bottom.

So 400 years pass and God brings the army of Jehovah in to judge the Canaanites. Notice that then God gives them an ADDITIONAL 40 years to stop their crimes as they see Israel wandering in the wildreness.

They book of Joshua says that the people saw what was coming. Probably after that 40 years the only ones who did not repent or disperse or stop their sins were the very hardest of the hard.

Time and warning had failed to get these nations to disperse there centers of evil or repent. Had I written the Bible, I might have excluded these portions. But I didn't. And I think we have a faithful and candid record of the harshest of possible punishments carried out by God.

Lastly, I would remind you that the Bible records one entire book dedicated to the subject of God's unwillingness to have to judge a nation. I think you should balance your reading of the book of Joshua with reading the book of Jonah.

Originally posted by Badwater
Because God forbids others to kill Cain, the story is implying that there are other humans that exist besides Adam, Eve, Abel, and Cain.

I think that Jesus borrows heavily from this example. To me it is the clearest Biblical example against capital punishment. In the very first murder in the Bible it would seem that penalty by death is in order and yet by God's word that's not how it pans out.

don't agree 😀
in fact there are plenty examples after where god has no problem asking for the death penalty for even the smallest offences (by today standards)


i simply think cain was supposed to suffer and to think forever at what he did. kind of a very harsh timeout

Originally posted by Badwater
Because God forbids others to kill Cain, the story is implying that there are other humans that exist besides Adam, Eve, Abel, and Cain.

I think that Jesus borrows heavily from this example. To me it is the clearest Biblical example against capital punishment. In the very first murder in the Bible it would seem that penalty by death is in order and yet by God's word that's not how it pans out.

What some of us see in is a downward progression of human society.

1.) man is directly governed by being in the presence of God.

2.) Man falls from this to being governed by his own conscience.

3.) Man falls to human governement. Supposedly those who DO listen to conscience should govern those who do not.

So you are correct that capital punishment is forbidden by God in that stage of anarchy (and I mean anarchy in a positive sense)

Latter after the flood, human government replaces government by the conscience alone. At that time capital punishmen IS instituted (Genesis 9:5).


Some call these periods dispensations. They are called dispensationalist. I think they have some valid ground. We see a gradual decline setting the backround for the calling out of Abraham as the head of the called race.

The created race declines from staqe to stage. Babel reflects their fall to the uttermost. At that time God starts His operation with the called race headed not by Adam but by Abraham.

His goal though is that all the families of the earth would be blessed. So it is through the called Abrahamic race God seeks to return blessing and salvation to the created Adamic race.

But I tend to be verbose.