A question of honesty

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]In terms of morality and psychology, it just strikes a jarring chord that doesn't really make sense.

It doesn't make sense to you because you're only looking at this through the filter of your own sense of morality and psychology. There are as many different versions of a sense of morality and psychology as there are people. So what do yo ...[text shortened]... his through... in fact your reasoning appears to be nothing more than an appeal to the emotions.[/b]

Actually, I think this question of FMF's is a good one. I'm not sure where you responded elsewhere in these threads, but I'm curious about what you and other Christians would say.

I am devoted to my wife. As far as I'm concerned, she's the best part of creation. I can't imagine what it would be like to have a "sense of morality and psychology" such that I could know she is in torment and not rage against it. If she went to Hell, then I'd feel as though I were there, too.

So, can you explain what "sense of morality and psychology" I'd need in order to, somehow, be OK with this? Relatedly, how could I come to have such a psychology and still be, in any sense, me?

Originally posted by bbarr
Actually, I think this question of FMF's is a good one. I'm not sure where you responded elsewhere in these threads, but I'm curious about what you and other Christians would say.

I am devoted to my wife. As far as I'm concerned, she's the best part of creation. I can't imagine what it would be like to have a "sense of morality and psychology" such that I ...[text shortened]... ith this? Relatedly, how could I come to have such a psychology and still be, in any sense, me?

I'm not sure where you responded elsewhere in these threads, but I'm curious about what you and other Christians would say.

My views on this particular concern of FMFs' began on page 25. If you want I can go back and collect all of the posts where I talk about this and re-post them here. There's really not much work involved seeing as how they can all be found within the last few pages of this thread.

Originally posted by bbarr
Actually, I think this question of FMF's is a good one. I'm not sure where you responded elsewhere in these threads, but I'm curious about what you and other Christians would say.

I am devoted to my wife. As far as I'm concerned, she's the best part of creation. I can't imagine what it would be like to have a "sense of morality and psychology" such that I ...[text shortened]... ith this? Relatedly, how could I come to have such a psychology and still be, in any sense, me?

You may find, as I have, that my fellow Christians here are decidedly reticent to discuss the practicalities of the doctrine of eternal punishment. The only one who has the courage to speak his mind, as unendearing as it is, is RJHinds.

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]I'm not sure where you responded elsewhere in these threads, but I'm curious about what you and other Christians would say.

My views on this particular concern of FMFs' began on page 25. If you want I can go back and collect all of the posts where I talk about this and re-post them here. There's really not much work involved seeing as how they can all be found within the last few pages of this thread.[/b]

I just read through all your responses from page 25 onward. You have not answered these questions. Will you?

Originally posted by bbarr
Actually, I think this question of FMF's is a good one. I'm not sure where you responded elsewhere in these threads, but I'm curious about what you and other Christians would say.

I am devoted to my wife. As far as I'm concerned, she's the best part of creation. I can't imagine what it would be like to have a "sense of morality and psychology" such that I ...[text shortened]... ith this? Relatedly, how could I come to have such a psychology and still be, in any sense, me?

I understand this isn't something you believe, and that your interest in this is academic. But if you happen to be wondering why God might have set it up this way, I'll leave any speculation about that to someone else. For me there is definitely a fear factor when it comes to questioning Gods' sense of morality and psychology. Job passed his test, but that didn't stop God from reading Job the riot act before lifting him out of his troubles.

Originally posted by bbarr
I just read through all your responses from page 25 onward. You have not answered these questions. Will you?

So be specific, and tell me exactly what questions you mean. I answered FMF as to people in heaven being tormented by the memory of loved ones who didn't go to heaven. The answer is they won't be tormented by anything. So the real point of FMFs statement is to cast doubt on Gods sense of morality, by asking why a loved one (someone you or FMF loves) might not be there with you.

And the answer to that question is no one will simply be able to ride the coat tails of someone else into heaven.

Originally posted by lemon lime
So be specific, and tell me exactly what questions you mean. I answered FMF as to people in heaven being tormented by the memory of loved ones who didn't go to heaven. The answer is they won't be tormented by anything. So the real point of FMFs statement is to cast doubt on Gods sense of morality, by asking why a loved one (someone you or FMF loves) might ...[text shortened]... t[/i] question is no one will simply be able to ride the coat tails of someone else into heaven.

To simply state "they won't be tormented" is not an adequate answer. Can you not see that?

Originally posted by divegeester
To simply state "they won't be tormented" is not an adequate answer. Can you not see that?

Where in your Bible do you see heaven described as a place of torment?

Originally posted by lemon lime
Where in [b]your Bible do you see heaven described as a place of torment?[/b]

Ok come back to the start point, which is:

The doctrine of eternal suffering is a hideous lie.

Now try to understand the answer to the question you have just posted.

Originally posted by lemon lime
Where in your Bible do you see heaven described as a place of torment?

Perhaps you are beginning to see why the scenario you are describing makes little sense and rings false? What could have happened to your humanity ~ as previously manifested in your love and dedication for loved ones, like a spouse or your children ~ that the horror in realizing that these loved ones were being tortured for eternity could be dismissed as being "all that crap", as you put it, and that lifelong love and dedication for loved ones could be extinguished by fear. What kind of "heaven" is this where this stuff is supposedly going on?

Originally posted by lemon lime
So be specific, and tell me exactly what questions you mean. I answered FMF as to people in heaven being tormented by the memory of loved ones who didn't go to heaven. The answer is they won't be tormented by anything. So the real point of FMFs statement is to cast doubt on Gods sense of morality, by asking why a loved one (someone you or FMF loves) might ...[text shortened]... t[/i] question is no one will simply be able to ride the coat tails of someone else into heaven.

I thought I was being specific, above. On your view, God has set up a system where it's possible I could go to Heaven while my wife goes to Hell. Presumably, in Heaven, I would know both that my wife was in Hell and that she was in torment there. Because I am profoundly in love with her, this knowledge would cause me unbearable anguish. But Heaven is supposed to be a place where people don't suffer unbearable anguish. So, your view apparently leads to a contradiction. It really doesn't matter that it's me we're talking about, it could be any husband and wife who love each other where one is saved and the other damned.

Now, your response seems to be simply to insist that in Heaven there will be no unbearable anguish of the sort I'm describing. You claim that FMF doesn't understand this because of his "sense of morality and psychology".

So, given that in Heaven there will be husbands and wives who are separated from their spouses and know they're in torment, how does God ensure that they themselves don't also suffer unbearable anguish? Does he remove their knowledge of the fates of their spouses? Does he change their "sense of morality and psychology" such that the fates of their spouses do not cause them unbearable suffering?

I'd like your explanation of how this all works.

Originally posted by divegeester
Ok come back to the start point, which is:

[b]The doctrine of eternal suffering is a hideous lie.

Now try to understand the answer to the question you have just posted.[/b]

I see, so you have no intention of answering any of my questions. This is your thread and you are the Grand Inquisitor here, is that it?

Originally posted by bbarr
I thought I was being specific, above. On your view, God has set up a system where it's possible I could go to Heaven while my wife goes to Hell. Presumably, in Heaven, I would know both that my wife was in Hell and that she was in torment there. Because I am profoundly in love with her, this knowledge would cause me unbearable anguish. But Heaven is suppo ...[text shortened]... es do not cause them unbearable suffering?

I'd like your explanation of how this all works.

What you see as a contradiction is due to two factors:

You are presuming that someone you love should be there with you, or you would suffer anguish over the knowledge that she is in hell.

First, nowhere in the Bible is heaven described as a place of torment. So the presumption of anguish over a loved one not being there with you is simply that, a presumption and not based on Biblical teaching.

And secondly, as I've already said, no one will be able to ride the coat tails of anyone else who gets into heaven. This may violate your sense of fairness and equity, but it really only violates how you feel about it. As much as it distresses me to think that anyone I love might end up in hell, I can't fault God for judging us as individuals rather than as a group.

Originally posted by lemon lime
I see, so you have no intention of answering any of [b]my questions. This is your thread and you are the Grand Inquisitor here, is that it?[/b]

Oh dear.

You are asking FMF why there is no mention of torment in heaven I.e. The torment of those therein over their loved ones in eternal hell.

The answer to your question is that there is no eternal hell. Not that there IS an eternal hell but god has somehow anaesthetised those in heaven from the realisation of where their loved ones are.

Originally posted by lemon lime
...nowhere in the Bible is heaven described as a place of torment. So the presumption of anguish over a loved one not being there with you is simply that, a presumption and not based on Biblical teaching.

How would this natural and understandable anguish at the thought of loved ones being tortured be eliminated?