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Originally posted by sonhouseI firmly believe a deity would NEVER set up such a situation where it would condone slavery.
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Indentured servitude was regulated in the Old Testament with the theocratic nation of Israel.
In the New Testament church I pointed out Paul's exhortation -
"For as many as are baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There cannot be Jew nor Greek. there cannot be slave or free man, there cannot be male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal 3:27,28)
If you want the Christian church, he teaches, then you CANNOT have Greeks oppressing Jews or Jews looking down in disdain for Greek.
If you want the normal Christian church, Paul instructs, then you CANNOT have free-men oppressing slaves. You CANNOT have it.
If you want to experience the church of Jesus Christ, Paul warns, then you CANNOT have males proudly oppressing females.
" ... for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are of Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise."
I know you hate Bible verses that don't reinforce your prejudice. But I have to take such passages into account.
The whole thing SCREAMS of human writing, to justify the rule of the upper echelons of that religion, FEAR god.
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You're doing a lousy job of rescuing ToO. I know that I treated many women (and men for that matter) a whole lot worse before I got the fear of God within me.
And what "screams" is your grasping at isolated passages to encourage yourself that you're better than God. You're an atheist who has to all his life convince himself that he is more righteous than the God that he doesn't believe exists.
"I lack a belief in God! And, by the way, I hate Him too!" That's the screaming I hear from you.
Which just points to that fear god thing as just another hook to control.
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The most controlled person by God was the Son of God.
He also was the most free.
In fact He was so free that the very grave could not hold Him.
Death could not keep Him.
And Jesus was the most under the authority of His Father.
Your so called "freedom" compared to that freedom of Jesus Christ is not impressive.
Of course you never read that one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is "self control" (Gal.5:22,23)
You should try the setting free that happens in knowing Jesus.
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03 Jan 16
"But I say, Walk by the Spirit and you sha;; by no means fulf8ll the list of the flesh. (v.16)
You should experience the power of the indwelling Spirit of Christ after receiving Him and being born again. He is certainly like "Power Steering". Just a little cooperation yields a deep spontaneous righteous living.
"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." (v.19)
You should find out what this pioneer experiencer of Christ meant by this. I have. I will more and more until I see the Lord.
That is the whole point of religion, having nothing to do with real spiritual achievement but to control the population and put in place a system where slavery and the subjugation of women is allowed.
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".... there cannot be male and female, for you are all one in Christ"
Just brainwash yourself that that is not in the New Testament. That will keep you obsessed with your prejudice.
Just creative people writing down the stuff needed to maintain control.
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Maybe at the judgment seat God will review all the females you ripped off in all your kind of "freedom" during your life as an atheist.
But of course, you will just foist on us more bible verses to 'prove' your unprovable faith.
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I have never claimed to be able to prove the experience of God is true. I have only elected to submit evidence that we are on the right track to believe in God.
You haven't foisted on us your scientific mathematical or chemical formula demonstrating beyond all shadow of doubt your atheism.
And I really don't see you as not controlled yourself or very free. How will my adopting your philosophy free me ? Will it "free" me to be empty, confused, bitter, and paranoid like yourself ? No thanks.
Originally posted by sonshipYou can't hate what doesn't exist. You can hate the humans who created such a nasty religion. I gather you don't have to listen to Leviticus any more. So you get to cherry pick what you want and what you don't. More correctly, the leaders of your religion gets to cherry pick the bible and you just follow.
[b] I firmly believe a deity would NEVER set up such a situation where it would condone slavery.
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Indentured servitude was regulated in the Old Testament with the theocratic nation of Israel.
In the New Testament church I pointed out Paul's e ...[text shortened]... elf control" (Gal.5:22,23)[/b]
You should try the setting free that happens in knowing Jesus.[/b]
You can't accept evidence only what you think is faith.
Evidence like 100 million killed in the 20th century wars. I will NEVER believe a deity with any real interest in mankind would allow that kind of massive murder to be committed. But your so-called god did nothing, said nothing, leaving the distinct impression the entire human race could be killed by whatever and there would still be no word from your lord.
Like the last days bullcrap thing going on for 2000 years now. Every generation has come up with it's own last days crap which NEVER happens and yet here is another generation of right wingers foisting the same old crap on humanity.
That is a SURE sign of humans simply out for control.
When THIS generation's last days bull crap goes into the dust bin of history, there will inevitably be yet another with the same tired old message.
And when THAT one fails, a couple hundred years from now after ten or so generations of such bull crap, then one right wing nutter living on Mars says the same thing and now the whole solar system goes bye bye in two weeks.
Of course THAT one fails as well, further showing the human nature of all these pathetic religions. Religions of death. That's what they are. Not interested in actual life, just how we will far in the afterlife which also doesn't exist.
Originally posted by sonhouseI think you just might find that the last two world wars which claimed the lives of millions of people were not religious wars. Infact Hitler was himself very much influenced by Darwinian concepts. Stalin was in essence a closet atheist. Mao was certainly an atheist. Now while this atheism cannot be attributed directly to the atrocities that they committed in the case of Hitler his ardent belief in Darwinian evolutionary theory can, because he truly believed that German racial superiority would triumph over the inferior 'races' like the Slavs. If any of these had held Christian principles in any kind of regard they would not have subjected millions of people to death. This is an inescapable fact and not easily refuted. The fact of the matter is that the Bible contains Christian teachings which if applied would prevent almost every conceivable problem that we face at present. The solution is there but prejudice simply bars many from accepting it.
You can't hate what doesn't exist. You can hate the humans who created such a nasty religion. I gather you don't have to listen to Leviticus any more. So you get to cherry pick what you want and what you don't. More correctly, the leaders of your religion gets to cherry pick the bible and you just follow.
You can't accept evidence only what you think is ...[text shortened]... . Not interested in actual life, just how we will far in the afterlife which also doesn't exist.
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Originally posted by sonhouseYou can't hate what doesn't exist.
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That's your problem, not mine.
You can hate the humans who created such a nasty religion.
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If Jesus of Nazareth did not live then we need to find whoever imagined the character up. The wisdom of that person who "created" the character - Jesus of Nazareth, is the greatest the world has ever seen.
That God is and that you don't like God is not my problem. You can hate He who is not real to YOU.
I gather you don't have to listen to Leviticus any more.
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Go learn what it means that the law was a child conductor leading us to grace.
Excuse me if I don't hold my breath waiting for you to get some education about it.
So you get to cherry pick what you want and what you don't. More correctly, the leaders of your religion gets to cherry pick the bible and you just follow.
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What will your philosophy do for us ?
I mean your guitar twanging is nice. But what do you offer the world which is superior to, let's say, the sermon on the mount (Matt. 5-8) ?
You can't accept evidence only what you think is faith.
Evidence like 100 million killed in the 20th century wars.
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Yea, yea. Hitler was a Catholic and Stalin was a theology student.
I've heard your revisionism before.
Most of the people so killed in the 20th Century was because of Atheist regimes - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot. As for Hitler, he obviously considered no other higher authority in the universe besides himself.
You're doing worst then "cherry picking". You're jumping around for another subject to argue about.
Anyway, somehow you should have been educated by now that the 20th Century saw millions of deaths because of Atheistic world philosophies. Of course your historical revisionism in antitheists circles is putting up a mighty effort to re-write the story of the 20th century.
I can see you're one of their leading dupes.
The subject of the thread is "A woman's place".
And you if you have nothing particular to say about it, let's see if someone else does.
You can go start another thread proving that Hitler was an altar boy, or whatever other excuse you want to make to make 20th Century wars all about "religion".
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03 Jan 16
4 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneSeems like whenever I try to explain exactly where you go wrong, you then take things out of context from the explanation and make further assumptions that do not take the context into account. Then I'm left having to try to explain where you went wrong with the explanation. If I do that, then you further perpetuate the cycle.
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I've been waiting for you to explain what it is you say I am sidestepping.
Sure, a distinction was made between foreign strangers as the slaves of Israel and as fellow Hebrews as slaves of Israel. Yes, I spoke of the distinction in the other thread.
To my memory, I think I pointed out that the laws were made so that the LAND ... the LAND remained in the hands of an Israelite. Putting it succinctly, God arranged the TWO types of slavery so that unless a foreigner really wanted to join the theocratic nation, embracing their God and all, they were not positioned to be able to inherit the LAND.
The laws were constructed around keeping the land in the possession of the Hebrews.
But that some distinction between Hebrew bondservants and foreign ones I would not deny. The term "slave" is used for both.
Now, concerning the exhortation about women keeping silence in the meeting. I am willing to hear your concern for something you think I overlook.
It be good is in showing where I went wrong, you consider your calling some sensational video charlatan preacher the return of the Apostle Paul, as you did, is umm ... let's say ... exaggeration (?).
I don't have high hopes that you'll be able to understand the above, but I figured it was worth a shot. I imagine that there are those who've tried to have a meaningful discussion with you who will understand exactly what I mean.
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Just don't regard "meanignful discussion" to mean "full agreement" with you.
IE. Paul, isn't worth reading because he exhorted women to ask questions of their husbands at home concerning Christian teaching.
04 Jan 16
Originally posted by sonshipYou really don't get it. I wasn't talking about whether the killers of the 20th century were religious or not. I was pointing out no deity came down to protest, stop it or anything else.
[b] You can't hate what doesn't exist.
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That's your problem, not mine.
You can hate the humans who created such a nasty religion.
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If Jesus of Nazareth did not live then we need to find whoever ...[text shortened]... r boy, or whatever other excuse you want to make to make 20th Century wars all about "religion".[/b]
I was pointing out it seems to me a billion people could have died with also not a peep from your oh so gracious god.
Or even 7 billion, ALL of us dead, and not a peep from your god.
That is what I see. Prove me wrong.
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Originally posted by sonhouseJust because you have your fingers jammed into your ears, and your eyes closed shut, and your mouth blabbing away blasphemies against God and slanders to drowned out the sound of His word in your heart, and your conscience hardened like steel, and your mind padlocked shut, doesn't mean God hasn't said a peep.
You really don't get it. I wasn't talking about whether the killers of the 20th century were religious or not. I was pointing out no deity came down to protest, stop it or anything else.
I was pointing out it seems to me a billion people could have died with also not a peep from your oh so gracious god.
Or even 7 billion, ALL of us dead, and not a peep from your god.
That is what I see. Prove me wrong.
Originally posted by sonshipWell then, show me what your alleged god did about those tens of millions of deaths in century 20. That shouldn't be too hard should it?
Just because you have your fingers jammed into your ears, and your eyes closed shut, and your mouth blabbing away blasphemies against God and slanders to drowned out the sound of His word in your heart, and your conscience hardened like steel, and your mind padlocked shut, doesn't mean God hasn't said a peep.
BTW, my position on women's place is this: Whatever they want they should get and if that means a Phd, then that's what will be. If they want an abortion, it's their body.
If they say no, they mean no, not now.
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Originally posted by sonhouseI DON'T WANT TO TALK TO YOU !!!
Okay, I'll talk to you a little.
Well then, show me what your alleged god did about those tens of millions of deaths in century 20. That shouldn't be too hard should it?
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To make a reasonable comparison, you should consider statistics on such things as -
How many lives were saved,
How many conflicts were avoided,
How many acts of murder did NOT take place,
How many atrocities were refrained from,
How many peaceful settlements were arrived AT,
How many occurrences of mercy or forgiveness,
How many lives were reasonably prolonged DUE to people believing either God influenced them, or something of the teaching about God acted upon their consciences.
I mean right now as we speak, surely, there are battles, conflicts, and wars being fought between family members, groups, and nations. But there are probably a lot of wars that are being withheld from erupting because at least someone/s feel God has other ideas.
So while your question is not easy to answer, it is also not easy to latch hold of as proof of Atheism.
Your next gem ?
BTW, my position on women's place is this: Whatever they want they should get and if that means a Phd,
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I am all for education and higher education for women.
Being in the Information Processessing field for decades I worked with and even for too many smart women in the field to ever be able to think they were handicapped in at least that particular field of knowledge.
The same would go for my other life's interest - music.
then that's what will be. If they want an abortion, it's their body.
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As men we have never or will never be faced with the decision of what to do about the life of another human being growing inside our bodies. But being faced with having to make a decision, I would want to face the fact that that child is actually in possession of his or her OWN body.
I don't think it is as simple as saying "Well, its all a matter of MY body." As a woman, I would want to consider that it is also a matter of ANOTHER sentient human being's body, soul, and spirit as well.
A sound bite or a flippant slogan doesn't do justice to the depth of the issue.
I would handle such a decision with much prayer to God.
If they say no, they mean no, not now.
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I take this to be your attempt at being funny perhaps. But it sounds like a predatory vulture's attitude, ie. just waiting for an opportune time to swoop down on a weakened body putting up no resistance. - Vulture Sexuality - "Not now but surely soon."
Getting back to the Apostle Paul's exhortations to gender related relationships, I can see why he told husbands that they should love their wives as Christ loved the church, being willing to lay down their lives for them. (See Ephesians 5)
And towards the young women in the congregation he told the men believers that they should treat them in all purity -
" ... Elderly women as mothers, younger women as sisters, in all purity." (1 Timothy 5:2)
05 Jan 16
Originally posted by sonshipHow many lives were saved? Not many from WW1 and 2. You don't remember the stacks of bodies from the Russian pogroms or the German death camps? When the Russians came in from the East and the Americans from the west crushing the German military, they liberated a million or so but 6 times that many were already dead.
I DON'T WANT TO TALK TO YOU !!!
Okay, I'll talk to you a little.
[b] Well then, show me what your alleged god did about those tens of millions of deaths in century 20. That shouldn't be too hard should it?
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To make a reasonable comparison, you should consider statis ...[text shortened]... lderly women as mothers, younger women as sisters, in all purity." (1 Timothy 5:2) [/b] [/quote][/b]
Are you implying it was god's work that drove those armies? I think you know the communist system is atheistic, right? So an atheist army and a religious army comes together in Berlin to liberate those not killed, does not sound like an order from a deity.
Besides, on a body count basis, if you god was actually interested in saving those millions, it could have just offed Stalin and Hitler and none of that would have happened. As far as I know, Stalin and Hitler were never murdered early on so they went on to do their evil deeds.
So once again, if there is this alleged god, it clearly has a very high tolerance to human pain and suffering and torture.
Why do suppose that would be?
What would be your judgement on just how many people would have to die before your personal deity did something to stop it?
100 million? We already know the number was 10 million plus, maybe 30 million counting the Chinese pogroms and despots like Pol Pot in Cambodia, he did in several million all by himself, well his orders anyway.
So not a peep after 30 million dead. So what would get your lord's attention? 100 million dead? 1 billion? Can't go to 8 billion dead, that would leave no humans alive.
So what would be the number do you think, that would get the attention of your god?
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05 Jan 16
1 edit
Originally posted by sonhouseHow many lives were saved? Not many from WW1 and 2. You don't remember the stacks of bodies from the Russian pogroms or the German death camps? When the Russians came in from the East and the Americans from the west crushing the German military, they liberated a million or so but 6 times that many were already dead.
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Did you assume I know nothing of the death and destruction of 20th century wars ?
I have seen footage of stacks of corpses being shoved along by bulldozers.
It was horrible.
So are the deaths of millions of unborn humans in female wombs who did not have military uniforms.
Are you implying it was god's work that drove those armies?
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No. But you're implying that the absence of dramatic divine intervention suggests atheism.
I think you know the communist system is atheistic, right? So an atheist army and a religious army comes together in Berlin to liberate those not killed, does not sound like an order from a deity.
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Why would I consider an army from a country of theistic beliefs and one from atheistic beliefs could not be providentially used by God ? There is a human conscience in all people whom God has created.
God placed a conscience in mankind He created. Both the atheist and the theist are created in the image of God. So they cannot help correspond to some reflection of His moral being.
What the Bible teaches is not that only theists are created in the image of God.
What the Bible teaches is that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
That is all except one man - Jesus, the Perfect Man. That is Jesus who is what God meant by the human race.
But I don't believe that only believers in God can have a conscience within appalled at the crimes against humanity of a Fascist regime.
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05 Jan 16
Besides, on a body count basis, if you god was actually interested in saving those millions, it could have just offed Stalin and Hitler and none of that would have happened. As far as I know, Stalin and Hitler were never murdered early on so they went on to do their evil deeds.
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You have not explained why on the basis of your belief that God doesn't exist, the deaths of these millions was something that shouldn't have happened.
Because I believe in an ultimate goodness and righteousness I have a straight line to compare when the moral line is crooked. As far as I can see you have no belief in an ultimate goodness and final justice and righteousness. So if there is no final OUGHT you have no standard against which to judge a crooked IS.
At least with my faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God who conquered sin and death there is a linear path of human history leading to a time when death will be no more.
You want to complain to me about what OUGHT to be. But when I tell you of the Bible's foretelling a final balancing of the moral scales for all eternity in a last judgment, you scoff and giggle, you blaspheme and pretend like you know there is no Ultimate Governor for mankind.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI don't think that that follows. Your claim here is that had Hitler been a Christian then he would not have believed that the Germans were Übermenschen and further that had he been a Christian he would not have committed these atrocities. There is a stack of historical evidence of Christians committing mass atrocities on the basis of their religion. Further there is nothing to prevent a group claiming to be racially superior on the basis of being favoured by a God. You've fallen slap bang into the "no true" fallacy there. The bible contains plenty of descriptions of divinely ordained massacres. So I do not think that your claim stands up to even the most cursory examination.
I think you just might find that the last two world wars which claimed the lives of millions of people were not religious wars. Infact Hitler was himself very much influenced by Darwinian concepts. Stalin was in essence a closet atheist. Mao was certainly an atheist. Now while this atheism cannot be attributed directly to the atrocities that they ...[text shortened]... hat we face at present. The solution is there but prejudice simply bars many from accepting it.
06 Jan 16
Originally posted by sonshipSo the bottom line is you cannot wrap your mind around the concept that a deity did nothing about millions of people dying and suffering for YEARS while slowly dying.
[b]
Besides, on a body count basis, if you god was actually interested in saving those millions, it could have just offed Stalin and Hitler and none of that would have happened. As far as I know, Stalin and Hitler were never murdered early on so they went on to do their evil deeds.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ...[text shortened]... f and giggle, you blaspheme and pretend like you know there is no Ultimate Governor for mankind.[/b]
Your alleged deity did nothing. Is doing nothing NOW as we speak with hundreds of children being shot to death at the hands of that cancer on humanity, Boko Haram and Isis. They are literally human cancers but your god doesn't see it that way, it lets all that suffering AS WE SPEAK take place AND all the suffering of WW1 and 2.
You just can't admit this god allows it to happen, maybe even condones it.