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Originally posted by sonhouseSo the bottom line is God became a man and manifested His character, heart, motive, purpose to us in the life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
And the bottom line is that His redemptive death for our sins that we might be reconciled forever to God is the greatest truth in the all time and in all the universe.
Originally posted by sonshipThe REAL bottom line is mankind is very creative, the best of us anyway, and some of that creativity was used to create the bible, the Torah, the Quran, the Ipanashads and all the rest. There was no god needed for any of these books, as pithy as you might think of them. All written by men and some women with no deity in sight.
So the bottom line is God became a man and manifested His character, heart, motive, purpose to us in the life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
And the bottom line is that His redemptive death for our sins that we might be reconciled forever to God is the greatest truth in the all time and in all the universe.
That is why it would seem from biblical passages that your god condones, in fact, COMMANDS the killing of infidels.
A real god would never do that, which just goes to prove the man made nature of your god.
A god which you think made man in its image. It was the other way round, man made a god in HIS image, its funny this god you worship never comes in as female so the female is put on the lower tier of humanity right from day one.
A deity, living outside of time, a multi-dimensional being, would have no use for sex or sexual identifiers since it would be immortal and in no need of reproduction so there would be no need for such a deity to say, I made man in my image.
Great man made statement there.
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Originally posted by sonhouseThe REAL bottom line is mankind is very creative,
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God created man in His own image and according to His own likeness. So yes, humans , like their Creator, have creativity. But they fell into sin too by falling into the opposition party against God.
the best of us anyway,
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The best of us was God incarnate - Jesus - God and man mingled as one.
and some of that creativity was used to create the bible,
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Prophecy is one matter which clues us that the origin of the Bible is greater than mere human. All the human creativity in the world could not have predicted that the Christ would be born in Bethlehem according to Micah 5:2.
Fortunately, not every thinking person has buried their head in the sand like an ostrich, like you. Some of us have realized that the prophecy written five centuries prior to the event bares the evidence of divine inspiration. Mere human creativity couldn't be the answer.
the Torah,
The Torah is word of God. It is the Old Testament, which itself contained a prophecy of God one day making a "new covenant" (Jeremiah 31:31-34) .
We now have both testaments, the Old and the New.
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the Quran, the Ipanashads and all the rest.
There are many books in the world. That doesn't make them all the same in every regard.
I mean both my New Testament and someone's Spider Man comic book have page numbers. That doesn't mean they are completely the same.
Pointing to other sacred books doesn't make the library of the Bible not unique.
The Quran is the product of the sayings of one man over a period of about 30 years.
Genesis to Revelation in the Bible is the production of over 1,600 years from 40 different writers at least.
The volume of some Hindu sacred scriptures is a better comparison. That is somewhat more the same in length and authorship, but not so much the same as you propagandize.
How much time do you spend on Discussion Forums disputing the contents of the Upanishads ? Link me to one of your debates over there. I'd like to see if you spend the same time and effort to argue against the Upanishads.
My guess is you probably don't spend even a minor fraction of the time there you do shoving away the Holy Bible as far from your conscience as you can. You know there IS a difference, don't you ?
"There's all the same!" Really? Well, they both fit on my book shelf. So in that regard there certainly no difference.
There was no god needed for any of these books, as pithy as you might think of them. All written by men and some women with no deity in sight.
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Link me to one of your debates over on a Discussion forum about the Quran. Let me see how you consider it exactly the same as the Gospels. Let me see if you REALLY treat them with the exact same amount of negative energy.
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That is why it would seem from biblical passages that your god condones, in fact, COMMANDS the killing of infidels.
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Please take the Gospels and the Epistles from Matthew through to Revelatiuon. Quote the COMMAND to KILL, so called infidels.
I expect your next post to quote a direct COMMAND to KILL a non-Christian to come from a chapter and verse from the books of Matthew to the end of the New Testament.
Your next post will have the chapter and verse of a divine instruction to kill a so-called "Infidel". Right ? I am out here on a limb now. So don't disappoint me.
Put up or shut up.
And please don't wait for some atheist buddy to sit in for you.
YOU made the charge. YOU substantiate it.
Originally posted by sonshipReading the Ipanishads, the first thing I notice is their god comes to Earth every 6 billion years or some number like that, also that people have been around for literally trillions of years.
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That is why it would seem from biblical passages that your god condones, in fact, COMMANDS the killing of infidels.
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Please take the Gospels and the Epistles from Matthew through to Revelatiuon. Quote the COMMAND to KILL, so called infidel ...[text shortened]... se don't wait for some atheist buddyto sit in for you. YOU made the charge. YOU substantiate it.[/b]
It is just another load of poppycock. JUST LIKE THE BIBLE, both written by men trying to convince people they wish to control that those words are the result of a deity talking to a person to write them down, making the writer a secretary not a writer, this deity could just as well have been speaking to a modern ink jet printer with enough software to understand the spoken word and print it out.
The commands to kill are in the old testament. So if you are a NT dude, why do you all insist on keeping the OT?
Could it be you like cherry picking that which you like and reject that which you don't?
"Let there be light'. THAT is ok from the OT. But don't listen to that nasty Leviticus, just tear out that part, go directly to Mathew, Mark, Luke and so forth.
Gee, that really sounds like cherry picking to me.
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Originally posted by sonhouseReading the Ipanishads, the first thing I notice is their god comes to Earth every 6 billion years or some number like that, also that people have been around for literally trillions of years.
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That's nice. But that is not what I asked you. As I read down I expect your PROOF from the Christian New Testament of God commanding believers in Jesus to KILL INFIDELS.
Have anything ?
It is just another load of poppycock. JUST LIKE THE BIBLE, both written by men trying to convince people they wish to control that those words are the result of a deity talking to a person to write them down, making the writer a secretary not a writer, this deity could just as well have been speaking to a modern ink jet printer with enough software to understand the spoken word and print it out.
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Matthew through to Revelation - You're going to SUBSTANTIATE your wild claim that my New Testament commands Christians to KILL so-called Infidels.
Do you have anything? Or are you just full of bluster, like what you're accusing the word of God to be ?
Reading on.
The commands to kill are in the old testament. So if you are a NT dude, why do you all insist on keeping the OT?
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The Old Testament's history of God leading the one and only true theocratic nation to possess the land of Canaan did have some commands to kill.
The new covenant church is not conquering the physical land away from the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, etc, etc, Our directives to kill in the New Testament are towards the old fallen nature that we are told to DENY while living by the Spirit of Christ instead.
Where are your New Testament commands to kill non-Christians ?
Could it be you like cherry picking that which you like and reject that which you don't?
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No, I simply PICK up what God promised, mainly that He would make a new covenant, not like the one He made when He brought the children of Israel out of Egypt.
Pull the boulders away from you eyes and read it.
" Indeed, days are coming, declares Jehovah, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Jacob.
Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by their hand to bring them out from the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was there Husband, declares Jehovah." (Jeremiah 31:31,32)
Could you point out the command of Jesus the Savior to kill infidels please ?
Can't find such a command, can you ?
Are you a strong pro-life advocate ? If not why not ?
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"Let there be light'. THAT is ok from the OT. But don't listen to that nasty Leviticus, just tear out that part, go directly to Mathew, Mark, Luke and so forth.
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Leviticus is sweet. I listen to it quite much.
But I listen to it with a view to what it means in a New Testament context.
I do listen to Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus ... even I listen carefully to JOSHUA.
But as the Apostle Paul teaches us, I listen to ascertain its New Testament relevance.
IE.
" Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our admonition, unto whom the ends of the ages have come." (1 Cor. 10:11)
Leviticus, Joshua, and Exodus and other history books of the Old Testament were written for the learning and admonition of new covenant believers.
"Now these things occurred as examples to you, that we should not be ones who lust after evil things, even as they also lusted. Neither become idolaters, as some of them did ... etc. etc." (v.6,7a)
So you see, you are being WILDLY and frantically bigotted like a man with no ability to be soberminded about the relationship between the Old Testament and the New.
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Gee, that really sounds like cherry picking to me.
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What did Jesus do to you that you're fighting against the Gospels so much ?
You have been afforded many days of happiness to pursue the pleasures you enjoy. Lightening doesn't zap you when you finish writing down your insults against God.
Shelter, friends, provision, ample time for you to consider your ways, God affords you.
God allows you talent and health of mind to enjoy your hobbies of creativity.
You don't even turn around after one year, and thank God for anything. EVEN you don't say "Thanks" just in CASE there is a Heavenly Father to which you could say "I just want to thank You if You are there."
God will probably continue to allow you the full freedom of will to not turn to Him if you do not want to.
What you feel is not the non-existence of God. What you feel is the awesome strength of your own freedom to choose to live without Him. You're intoxicated from it. Its eating you up from within.
Me? I want to turn my heart over completely to the One who loved me so as to die for me to be saved from my sins. He's the Son of God.
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It is just another load of poppycock. JUST LIKE THE BIBLE, both written by men trying to convince people they wish to control that those words are the result of a deity talking to a person to write them down, making the writer a secretary not a writer, this deity could just as well have been speaking to a modern ink jet printer with enough software to understand the spoken word and print it out.
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You don't understand inspiration at all.
Paul wrote epistles. These are part of the word of God of inspired Scripture today. But he did not act just as a dictaphone.
What Paul wrote about he absolutely LIVED day by day. His message and his living were one.
You could not say that of the Quran of Mohammed.
Mohammed did claim to act just like a tape recorded.
The New Testament writers spoke out from what they LIVED. They lived Christ. THey lived out the Spirit of Jesus Christ Who was within them. Their message was also the way they lived day by day.
This is not to say they were perfect. Only the Son of God is Perfect.
But the writers lived the message that they wrote to the church and the world.
Originally posted by sonshipSo you figure the Leviticus verses that say kill your kids if they mouth off to their parents, that is SWEET? So you cherry pick even inside Leviticus.
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"Let there be light'. THAT is ok from the OT. But don't listen to that nasty Leviticus, just tear out that part, go directly to Mathew, Mark, Luke and so forth.
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Leviticus is sweet. I listen to it quite much.
But I listen to it with a view to ...[text shortened]... with no ability to be soberminded about the relationship between the Old Testament and the New.[/b]
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Originally posted by sonhouseI don't know if "MOUTHING OFF" is a direct Hebrew to English translation to be trusted.
So you figure the Leviticus verses that say kill your kids if they mouth off to their parents, that is SWEET? So you cherry pick even inside Leviticus.
The whole Bible is a feast to me.
Man shall not live by bread alone, but everything that proceeds from the mouth of God.
For a nation that witnessed God's miraculous power displayed against the Egyptian empire in an astounding supernatural deliverance, yes, it is conceivable that a command to bringing up your children respectfully was a matter of life and death, could occur.
You're vehemently PRO-Life, am I right ?
Or is that .... different ?
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Originally posted by sonship'For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.' (Mat 15:4).
[b] Reading the Ipanishads, the first thing I notice is their god comes to Earth every 6 billion years or some number like that, also that people have been around for literally trillions of years.
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That's nice. But that is not what I asked you. As I r ...[text shortened]... ommand of Jesus the Savior to kill infidels please ?
Can't find such a command, can you ?
The NT does contain some some troubling commands. The above is just one example.
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Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke'For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.' (Mat 15:4).
The NT does contain some some troubling commands. The above is just one example.
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Look at the discussion there carefully.
And He answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition ? (v.3)
For God said, "Honor your father and your mother," and "He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death." (v.4)
But you say, Whoever says to his father or his mother, Whatever you would have been profited by me is now a gift to God, (v.5)
Shall by no means honor his father or his mother; and you have deprived the word of God of its authority because of your tradition. (v.6)
Hypocrites! Well has Isaiah prophesied concerning you, saying, This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart stays far away from Me ... (v.7,8)
Yes, Jesus is referring to an Old Testament passage. But He used the admittedly strong passage to expose the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and scribes who were opposing Him.
There was a command to STONE an adulterous woman from Moses. But did Jesus encourage the crowd in John 8 to execute a stoning ? No, He shined upon them a stronger and more penetrating light on thier consciences. He said whoever was without sin among them should be the first to cast a stone at her.
From the oldest down to the younger, they ALL quietly withdrew from the vigilante mob. They knew that they were all as guilty, though they may not always have been caught in the act. God knew them. And their own conscience knew - starting with the ones who lived the longest.
As in John 8 so here in Matthew 15. Jesus neither denies the command was made nor contradicts it. He speaks a higher and more penetrating truth making way for the enactment of His new covenant.
Simply indicating that Jesus did quote the Law of Moses is not sufficient to prove that He was teaching His new testament disciples to perform its death executions. Rather He Himself became the unique EXECUTED One on His cross on behalf of all sinners.