31 Oct 05
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderThey were people. They made laws based on their morality. The people who make laws today, do so by using their morality to interpret the morality of our founding fathers.
What an ironic statement. Were Madison, Jefferson, Washington and all the rest of the men who created the United States and who also believed in Fundamental Rights and Social Contract theory insane too in your estimation?
How many times do we have to go through this?
31 Oct 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressHey they are people, if that is your source of laws what I said was
They were people. They made laws based on their morality. The people who make laws today, do so by using their morality to interpret the morality of our founding fathers.
correct, if you want to dig a little deeper and bring God into this,
that becomes a different topic. I'd love to see how you justify the
abortions, when God says he is the one that forms us within our
mother's wombs.
Kelly
31 Oct 05
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayMost of them believed in a Creator, true. But a Creator is not a necessary part of Fundamental Rights theory since they traced the concept of Fundamental Rights from the beginnings of society and how people acted toward each other from these times. They generally thought the actions of Man were reflective of a Creator but even if there is no Creator, men still act as they do. Virtually none of them would believe in the type of God you do; Jefferson published a Bible taking out every single "miracle" as he believed that these were added by superstitious, semi-primitive people.
Well it did come up there was a creator that gave us some rights,
is that what your refering too?
Kelly
31 Oct 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressApparently until stupid people like you realize that just because Newton discovered the principles relating to gravity, doesn't mean gravity didn't exist prior to Newton. And just because John Locke and the others I've mentioned first discovered the principles of human Fundamental Rights, doesn't mean human Fundamental Rights didn't exist before them (they did).
They were people. They made laws based on their morality. The people who make laws today, do so by using their morality to interpret the morality of our founding fathers.
How many times do we have to go through this?
31 Oct 05
Originally posted by KellyJayPlease cite any part of Scripture that explicitly states that abortion is murder. I can quote you Scripture (in Leviticus) if I bother to look it up which says that causing the death of a fetus does not trigger the Lex Talonus (spl?) but that any injury to the pregnant woman does. Better start studying your own book of superstitions, KJ.
Hey they are people, if that is your source of laws what I said was
correct, if you want to dig a little deeper and bring God into this,
that becomes a different topic. I'd love to see how you justify the
abortions, when God says he is the one that forms us within our
mother's wombs.
Kelly
31 Oct 05
2 edits
Sorry, its Exodus 21;22-24:
22 And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
EDIT: This is, of course, consistent with explicit provisions in the Jewish Talmud:
The fetus in the womb, says Rashi, classic commentator on the Bible and Talmud, is lav nefish hu, not a person, until he comes into the world. Feticide, then, does not constitute homicide, and the basis for denying it capital-crime status in Jewish law - even for those rabbis who may have wanted to rule otherwise - is scriptural. Alongside the above text is another one in Exodus that reads: "If men strive, and wound a pregnant woman so that her fruit be expelled, but no harm befall [her], then shall he be fined as her husband shall assess...But if harm befall [her], then shalt thou give life for life" (21:22). The Talmud makes this verse's teaching explicit: Only monetary compensation is exacted of him who causes a woman to miscarry. Note also that though the abortion spoken of here is accidental, it contrasts with the homicide (of the mother) which is also accidental. Even unintentional homicide cannot be expiated by a monetary fine.
http://caae.phil.cmu.edu/Cavalier/Forum/abortion/background/judaism1.html#II
31 Oct 05
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioPlease enlighten me on these issues.
Then your assigning of rights to the human species is arbitrary. It isn't based
on reason, but on opinion. You are saying humans have rights because they
are human.
That isn't reason, Ivanhoe.
Give me a reason why humans (at any phase of existence) have rights.
Nemesio
What is a human being in your book ?
Why do YOU assign rights to human beings ?
31 Oct 05
Originally posted by no1marauderGravity has nothing to do with morality genius. Gravity can be scientifically measured, a moral cannot. Morality is little more than an opinion about what is right.
Apparently until stupid people like you realize that just because Newton discovered the principles relating to gravity, doesn't mean gravity didn't exist prior to Newton. And just because John Locke and the others I've mentioned first discovered the principles of human Fundamental Rights, doesn't mean human Fundamental Rights didn't exist before them (they did).
31 Oct 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressI'm not denying that, as a matter of fact I've been saying that
They were people. They made laws based on their morality. The people who make laws today, do so by using their morality to interpret the morality of our founding fathers.
How many times do we have to go through this?
same thing all along. People do what they will, they act as they
see fit, they kill each other, they tax each other, they buy and
sell each other; they justify what they do left and right. It has
always been this way, you seem to think we have arrived at a
higher level of human morals than we had in the past. The only
thing we have really arrived at is better creature comforts, we
still do the same things to each other that has always been done
by man.
Kelly
31 Oct 05
Originally posted by no1marauderDid I use the word murder?
Please cite any part of Scripture that explicitly states that abortion is murder. I can quote you Scripture (in Leviticus) if I bother to look it up which says that causing the death of a fetus does not trigger the Lex Talonus (spl?) but that any injury to the pregnant woman does. Better start studying your own book of superstitions, KJ.
Kelly
31 Oct 05
Originally posted by no1marauderThis is the passage according to the KJ version. It says plainly that abortions are wrong.
Sorry, its Exodus 21;22-24:
22 And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 eye for ey ...[text shortened]... monetary fine.
http://caae.phil.cmu.edu/Cavalier/Forum/abortion/background/judaism1.html#II
Exodus 21;22-24: And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And But if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
31 Oct 05
Originally posted by no1marauderWhat rights do we have fundamentality again, I guess I missed
Apparently until stupid people like you realize that just because Newton discovered the principles relating to gravity, doesn't mean gravity didn't exist prior to Newton. And just because John Locke and the others I've mentioned first discovered the principles of human Fundamental Rights, doesn't mean human Fundamental Rights didn't exist before them (they did).
that meeting. Did they come through God or evolution? Can they
be taken away, can we become less of a person so that can cause
us to lose these rights? What are the rules, who made them again?
Kelly
31 Oct 05
Originally posted by KellyJayYou’re missing my point. I’m saying that a law is basically somebody’s moral idea that has been legalized. This is the point the marauder doesn’t get.
I'm not denying that, as a matter of fact I've been saying that
same thing all along. People do what they will, they act as they
see fit, they kill each other, they tax each other, they buy and
sell each other; they justify what they do left and right. It has
always been this way, you seem to think we have arrived at a
higher level of human morals th ...[text shortened]... e comforts, we
still do the same things to each other that has always been done
by man.
Kelly
31 Oct 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressYup, gravity can be measured. And so can Fundamental Rights except it's a lot easier. Just think of what the average human being wants and what he joins into society expecting. Think of how he believes he should act toward his fellow man. Think of the what is required in a society. VOILA! Even somebody as thick as you should be able to figure out the basic contours of what a Fundamental Right is. Think about it.
Gravity has nothing to do with morality genius. Gravity can be scientifically measured, a moral cannot. Morality is little more than an opinion about what is right.
31 Oct 05
Originally posted by KellyJayRead Locke, Paine, the Declaration of Independence, etc. etc. etc. Or stay ignorant.
What rights do we have fundamentality again, I guess I missed
that meeting. Did they come through God or evolution? Can they
be taken away, can we become less of a person so that can cause
us to lose these rights? What are the rules, who made them again?
Kelly