12 Feb 07
Originally posted by whodeyIn other words, what you are saying is that if a person has done some sinful acts in his life; then repented when he found God, he might still end up in hell, because he still need to pay for his past sins.
The Bible does not say what their eternal fate was. It only stated that they died physically. I think you will find that even though God may forgive you of a particular sin in no way means that you will not pay for that sin. For example, the story of David and Bathsheeba comes to mind. David commited adultry with her and then killed her husband. Then whe ...[text shortened]... turned on him and attempted to take over his throne for themsleves as a judgement against him.
Hmm... in that case perhaps it is time for the bible to be updated. The Muslim holy book, I believe, is friendlier. If you convert to Islam, all you sins in the past would be washed away. Very appetizing, huh?
13 Feb 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ckoh1965What I am saying is that I believe ALL of mankind to be redeemed by Christs sacrifice on the cross. This applies to men and women who have died before, during, and after the time of Christ.
In other words, what you are saying is that if a person has done some sinful acts in his life; then repented when he found God, he [b]might still end up in hell, because he still need to pay for his past sins.
Hmm... in that case perhaps it is time for the bible to be updated. The Muslim holy book, I believe, is friendlier. If you convert to Islam, all you sins in the past would be washed away. Very appetizing, huh?[/b]
There is no magic formula for salvation other than sheer faith. What I can tell you is that God desires faith first and foremost. Biblically, sin is merely the absence of faith in what God is telling you. If you do as he tells you will naturally repent of sin because he is a holy God. Also I can tell you that God demands blood sacrifice for sin. This can be seen throughout the Old Testament up until the time of Christ. Then mysteriously blood sacrifices stopped. That is, of coarse, unless you are a Christian. If you are a Christian you believe that God never changes and still demands blood sacrifice such as the blood sacrifice of his Son on the cross. Why does God require a blood sacrifice you may ask? I have my speculations. The Bible says that the life is in the blood. From what we know today, there is truth in this. All I need to do is draw a blood sample from you to get an indication of your overall phyisical health. Therefore, as sin brings death the "lifeblood" of a blood sacrifice becomes a substitute for such sin. The Bible does not come out and say this directly, rather, this is merely my speculation based upon what it does say.
As far as who is saved and who is not, I do not think it worthy of speculation. After all, God is the judge of such matters. Why then do we persist in speculating such matters as if we were to be the judge and jury. All I can tell you is that God judges according to your heart and he is a fair and just judge according to the life circumstances you may find yourself in. Therefore, I think it imperitive that we dedicate our energies instead to examining our own hearts before it is examined for us.
13 Feb 07
Originally posted by whodeyI thought the idea was that Jesus was the blood sacrifice for all of our sins - meaning, the ultimate blood sacrifice so that we would not be required to sacrifice to restore our relationship with God (because Jesus was, is and always will be that restoring sacrifice).
Also I can tell you that God demands blood sacrifice for sin. This can be seen throughout the Old Testament up until the time of Christ. Then mysteriously blood sacrifices stopped. That is, of coarse, unless you are a Christian. If you are a Christian you believe that God never changes and still demands blood sacrifice such as the blood sacrifice of his Son on the cross.
Isn't that why in some spots in the bible Jesus is referred to as 'the Lamb of God'? Or the phrase 'the blood of the Lamb'?
13 Feb 07
2 edits
Originally posted by CritaThat is true, however, Jesus is a blood sacrifice for us nonetheless. That is what I was driving at. We no longer have to sacrifice the blood of animals, however, we still need blood atonement as in the day of animal sacrifice.
I thought the idea was that Jesus was the blood sacrifice for all of our sins - meaning, the ultimate blood sacrifice so that we would not be required to sacrifice to restore our relationship with God (because Jesus was, is and always will be that restoring sacrifice).
Isn't that why in some spots in the bible Jesus is referred to as 'the Lamb of God'? Or the phrase 'the blood of the Lamb'?
13 Feb 07
Originally posted by whodeySo, do you know why God demands a blood sacrifice or what he gets out of it? Or do you just accept it without question?
That is true, however, Jesus is a blood sacrifice for us nonetheless. That is what I was driving at. We no longer have to sacrifice the blood of animals, however, we still need blood atonement as in the day of animal sacrifice.
13 Feb 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadI'm not speaking for whodey, but my belief is that any need for a blood sacrifice was covered when Jesus died on the cross. So, I don't believe God still requires them.
So, do you know why God demands a blood sacrifice or what he gets out of it? Or do you just accept it without question?
13 Feb 07
Originally posted by CritaMaybe when he lost his son to one he realised that blood sacrifices aren't funny.
I'm not speaking for whodey, but my belief is that any need for a blood sacrifice was covered when Jesus died on the cross. So, I don't believe God still requires them.
14 Feb 07
Originally posted by CritaYou are just avoiding the question. What I am asking is why he required them in the first place.
I'm not speaking for whodey, but my belief is that any need for a blood sacrifice was covered when Jesus died on the cross. So, I don't believe God still requires them.
Its like a bully teacher walking around the class room hitting everyone who gets out of line. Then one day he says "I like you guys and I realize that you are getting out of line because what I am teaching is just too hard for you, but I've got to hit someone." So he gives himself a really hard punch in the face. Now nobody needs to get punched. But the silly thing is that even before that special day, the student had figured out that if you brought your sheep to school then the teacher could punch the sheep instead of you!
We all understand punishment, but it is clear from the Jesus story that sacrifice is not punishment, so what is it?
14 Feb 07
Originally posted by ckoh1965Last time I saw Eve was in her cave outside Morpheus' kingdom. I couldn't fathom her expression.
Anyway, I wonder what happened to them in the end? Was there any mention of this in the bible? Did they both end up in hell when they died? After almost 1,000 years in exile, did the forgiving God forgive them?
14 Feb 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadI wasn't aware that was the question in the first place! I thought I was explaining why God no longer requires sacrifices. OK, now I'm on the same page.
You are just avoiding the question. What I am asking is why he required them in the first place.
Its like a bully teacher walking around the class room hitting everyone who gets out of line. Then one day he says "I like you guys and I realize that you are getting out of line because what I am teaching is just too hard for you, but I've got to hit someone ...[text shortened]... shment, but it is clear from the Jesus story that sacrifice is not punishment, so what is it?
The reason God required sacrifices was all to do with relationship. He had a relationship with His people and when they sinned, that relationship was cut off (because of the people's sin). The blood was used as a symbol of cleansing and restoring, so that the people could be in relationship with God again. I don't have my bible with me at work, but there are passages that say things like the High Priest could only enter the Tabernacle and the Inner Sanctum (where God resided) if he was cleansed and holy before the Lord. So, if he (or the people he was representing to God) had sinned and were 'unclean' then a blood sacrifice was required to cleanse the High Priest and the people so that the High Priest wouldn't be destroyed by entering God's presence while being unclean.
When Jesus died and shed His blood, that is what covers us so that we no longer need sacrifices and can stand in God's presence holy and righteous in His sight.
So does that help explain why sacrifice is different to punishment?