Originally posted by apathist
originally posted by [b] twhitehead
Also the first sentence of the article is a blatant lie.
No, it's a figure of speech, an idiom, hyperbole I think. Not meant to be taken literally. It doesn't affect the evidence and reasoning in the article.[/b]
They’re screaming it from the rooftops: “addiction is a disease, and you can’t stop it without medical treatment”! But why are they screaming it so loud, why are they browbeating us about it, why is it always mentioned with a qualifier?
I fully realise that it does not literally mean people are screaming from roof tops. But it does mean that many people are people forcefully making the claim that you cannot stop addiction without medical treatment. That is a blatant lie. I challenge you to find any sane person making such a claim.
If the article starts off with hyperbole, what hope is there for the rest?
Originally posted by apathistActually, it is.
Addiction is not a physiological disease (caused by a physical change to some tissue or organ of the body).
That is the context being used when people claim addiction is not a disease.
Then they should be clearer about the context.
Btw the cdc and the nih agree that addiction is not a disease.
Yet when asked to provide a reference for that claim, you failed and instead tried to used distraction tactics.
Provide a reference please.
Originally posted by apathistIn that case, I largely agree. The thread title and OP are therefore very poorly worded and you have been arguing for nothing. Why? You seem have gone to great lengths to be misunderstood.
Avoiding the ambiguous words addiction, disease and compulsion, the op is saying that alcohol or drug abuse occurs by choice - a willed decision to continue using despite the consequences. So quitting or regaining control must be a willed decision also.
Where we probably disagree is on what happens after someone quits or how difficult it may be to quit for various people. Many substances leave people with strong compulsions for life.
Originally posted by twhitehead
But it does mean that many people are people forcefully making the claim that you cannot stop addiction without medical treatment. That is a blatant lie.
Actually, translate the rest of the hyperbole as well. Doesn't a diagnosis that we have a 'disease' mean that medical intervention is indicated?
I challenge you to find any sane person making such a claim.
The claim that addiction is a 'disease' and medical intervention is indicated? Easy, all day long.
If the article starts off with hyperbole, what hope is there for the rest?
Oh sure, if any article starts with a figure of speech, let's ignore all subsequent evidence and reasoning. We are safer that way.
Originally posted by twhitehead
Then they should be clearer about the context.
The reader should assume the writer is using a context such that the writer's claims make sense.
I think some readers choose context for the exact opposite reason.
Yet when asked to provide a reference for that claim, you failed and instead tried to used distraction tactics.
Provide a reference please.
I already did, page 3.
From cdc.
Here's a list of diseases. Note the lack of addiction or alcoholism.
http://www.cdc.gov/DiseasesConditions/az/a.html
From nih
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-1/5-17.htm
DSM–IV and ICD–10 define two alcohol use disorders—dependence and abuse.
originally posted by apathist
alcohol or drug abuse occurs by choice - a willed decision to continue using despite the consequences. So quitting or regaining control must be a willed decision also.
originally posted by twhitehead
In that case, I largely agree.
The thread title and OP are therefore very poorly worded and you have been arguing for nothing. Why? You seem have gone to great lengths to be misunderstood.
It is you who insists on being unclear. For example, you agree with the restatement above even though you don't agree with the original, so you see some distinction that makes a difference for you, but instead of sharing to clarify your stance you keep it close like a hole card.
I bet I know what distinction you see, and it isn't unreasonable but it won't rescue you - it involves a fallacy. But since you didn't share, I needn't bother rebutting.
Where we probably disagree is on what happens after someone quits or how difficult it may be to quit for various people. Many substances leave people with strong compulsions for life.
You're being unclear ungain. What makes you think we would probably disagree on what happens after someone quits? What makes you think I don't know how difficult it may be to quit for various people? Your last sentence is especially ambiguous. Are you saying that for some people the urge to abuse drugs or alcohol does not lessen over time? Who knows.
Anyway, we agree that substance abuse is a choice. The questions about whether it should be called 'disease' and whether addiction is a symptom and not a behavior are still interesting. If you are right on the latter then your stance on the former makes more sense.
Its always fun talking with you, tw. You kinda remind me of a vulcan. Ask me about vulcans sometime.
Originally posted by apathistNo it does not.
Actually, translate the rest of the hyperbole as well. Doesn't a diagnosis that we have a 'disease' mean that medical intervention is indicated?
Originally posted by twhitehead
I challenge you to find any sane person making such a claim.
Originally posted by apathist
The claim that addiction is a 'disease' and medical intervention is indicated? Easy, all day long.
Fail.
The fact that you deliberately sidestepped demonstrates you believe you cannot meet the challenge.
Oh sure, if any article starts with a figure of speech, let's ignore all subsequent evidence and reasoning. We are safer that way.
I indicated that I was more than happy to go through the whole article step by step on condition you agree to read my posts and actually listen for a change. You have not agreed to do so.
it's all conditions, addiction and ocd are conditions, you choices either support or neglect positive or negative conditions in your life that either help them to leave or help them to remain in your life. Sometimes we need to accept certain conditions we do not like or at least tolerate them for a while until they will leave, but we never have to make them comfortable and make them a cup of tea and a nice place to sit.
there is an indian story about a man battling his demons...
An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy.
“It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”
The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
http://www.virtuesforlife.com/two-wolves/
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Originally posted by tutachess
“It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”
The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
That was a wise saying.
And if you get Jesus into you and feed Jesus - overcoming and victory in grace!
But that was a very wise saying. We Christians can recognize that God given wisdom is imparted to people of all kinds of human cultures.
Originally posted by sonshipIf those cultures have true compassion and faith then it means He imparted more than wisdom to them, faith and compassion in truth means they have gone beyond wisdom of men and intellectual pursuits and have real connection.
[b][quote] “It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion ...[text shortened]... Christians can recognize that God given wisdom is imparted to people of all kinds of human cultures.
If they have chosen to follow The Way they will find the only thing that is necessary, that understanding beleif.
Last time i spoke with another about that story it was in the context of biblical passages.
seen this pic? http://66.media.tumblr.com/20642a7fcf5eb99994982c4ce05f68e6/tumblr_n1iniaKVhb1qb2vwyo1_1280.jpg
if truth is simply truth and existed outside this circle and the timeframe those scriptures many of us read were written, then those who sought The real Way, The real Truth and The real Life must have been finding it. Justice and revenge, truth and lies, the faithfull and the unbelievers all existed outside that circle and timeframe and people also existed and like all people they were loved and given opportunities to get the best.
I wish you well bro, may we meet sooner rather than later and on the best of terms.