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22 Jan 13
Originally posted by Zahlanzi
the jews where under cruel oppression from the philistines according to the jews. what other sources do you have that they suffered so much?
for example, referring to another bible story, some view ahab and jezebel as quite progressive rulers, allowing freedom of religion, and elijah (or eli, i mix the english version of their names) the madman that tried to mess up the society they were trying to build.
the jews where under cruel oppression from the philistines according to the jews. what other sources do you have that they suffered so much?
Where else besides the OT can I know this?
I'll take some time on that.
But then again you could move the goal post again.
for example, referring to another bible story, some view ahab and jezebel as quite progressive rulers, allowing freedom of religion, and elijah (or eli, i mix the english version of their names) the madman that tried to mess up the society they were trying to build.
Ahab and Jezebel could have indeed been "progressive" to your sensibility.
I'm sure for some moving from Yahweh to Baal was progressive and great "freedom of religion".
Comment more latter.
23 Jan 13
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipfor a better understanding of history, it pays to find more points of view, see what is common and what is bias. i was never a fan of the O's view of "anything that doesn't adhere to our religion is an abomination and needs to die". christians do not kill everyone of a different faith (early christians, the crusades and the inquisitions are perversions of the christian faith). instead they try to let everyone do their own thing and set an example that people will follow of their own will.the jews where under cruel oppression from the philistines according to the jews. what other sources do you have that they suffered so much?
Where else besides the OT can I know this?
I'll take some time on that.
But then again you could move the goal post again.
[quote]
for example, referring to another bible stor Yahweh to Baal was progressive and great "freedom of religion".
Comment more latter.
the story of ahab and jezebel is simply an example of how bias may distort historical records. they are vilified for allowing idol worshiping, something the israelites were told is evil. but understand that they only did what civilized countries are expected and required to do in our time : freedom of religion. because of that, they received increased tax from all those foreigners practicing voodon in their country, and most likely an increase in relations with non-jewish neighbours (all of them). The following excerpt is taken from jezebel's wiki entry:
"The scholar V. Barzowski interprets Ahab's marriage to Jezebel as a dynastic marriage intended to cement a Phoenician political alliance. This went back to the times of King Solomon, to give the then-inland Kingdom of Israel access to the Mediterranean Sea and international trade. The monarchy (and possibly an urban elite connected with it) enjoyed the wealth derived from this trade, which gave it a stronger position vis-a-vis the rural landowners. The monarchy became more centralized with a powerful administration"
I'm sure for some moving from Yahweh to Baal was progressive and great "freedom of religion".
it was. it allowed baalers to practice baaling without the fear of a mild case of the deadsies. when we hear of religion persecution in our time, we are revolted. why do we let it slide when it comes to god's chosen people?
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23 Jan 13
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for a better understanding of history, it pays to find more points of view, see what is common and what is bias.
When we get to the New Testament we have "God so loved THE WORLD ...".
But we really don't have to wait altogether until the New Testament. For example, the book of Jonah seems dedicated to proving that Yahweh the God of Israel was reluctant to have to judge ANY nation. The prophet was terribly upset that the enemies of Israel repented at God's warnings.
"I was hoping you'd do our enemies in."
Now the compilers of the OT canon could have hushed the book of Jonah up and excluded it. But they recognized it as the word of God.
Maybe sometimes man's thirst for the real truth overrides their nationalistic biases.
"Hey, we don't like it. But we realize that this God did and spoke these things too."
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23 Jan 13
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the story of ahab and jezebel is simply an example of how bias may distort historical records. they are vilified for allowing idol worshiping, something the israelites were told is evil. but understand that they only did what civilized countries are expected and required to do in our time : freedom of religion. because of that, they received increased tax from all those foreigners practicing voodon in their country, and most likely an increase in relations with non-jewish neighbours (all of them). The following excerpt is taken from jezebel's wiki entry:
You have a good point in this regard: It is valid to understand, such things as, multiplying foriegn wives had its political advantages. And what could be done to encease taxes had its advantages.
Having said that, I would ask you to consider again the divine promises given to them by God. If they would keep His commandments, the land would be blessed, they would prosper, their crop would yield abundantly, there would even be no poor in the land, etc. etc. etc. etc.
IF ... IF they would follow God they would be blessed above all nations on the earth. Schemes of the surrounding nations would be unnecessary.
This is the light in which I read the Old Testament. Read again the positive promises of their God given in Deut. 28: 1- 14.
It starts with this sentence -
"And if you listen diligently to the voice of Jehovah your God and are certain to do all His commandments, which I am commanding you today, Jehovah your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth; And all these blessings will come upon you and overtake you if you listen to the voice of Jehovah your God."
Read the remaining verses through to verse 14.
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23 Jan 13
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The scholar V. Barzowski interprets Ahab's marriage to Jezebel as a dynastic marriage intended to cement a Phoenician political alliance.
No doubt. And Solomon had both romantic and political reasons for securing 600 wives. He loved many foriegn women and collected women like some people collect butterfies.
But they led him away from the God of Israel. And for that reason Israel was divided into Israel and Judah.
Now some may count that explanation as the religious interpretation of political happenings. But I think the Bible there is speaking from God's point of view.
By the way, I like the time when God is boasting a little that Ahab has a season of repentance. God seems to boast to His prophet -
First Kings 21:29 - "And the word of Jehovah came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying, Do you see how Ahab humbled himself before Me? "
This went back to the times of King Solomon, to give the then-inland Kingdom of Israel access to the Mediterranean Sea and international trade.
Again. Their reliance was to be primarily towards Yahweh and following His commandments.
That they turned rather to schemes of all kinds like the surrounding nations is evident.
The monarchy (and possibly an urban elite connected with it) enjoyed the wealth derived from this trade, which gave it a stronger position vis-a-vis the rural landowners. The monarchy became more centralized with a powerful administration"
Burning children in the fires to Molech was forbidden by God. Having temple prostitutes was forbidden by God. Young girls dedicated to fornicate in religious ceremonies was forbidden.
Consulting the dead, interaction with demons, fortune telling, astrology, witchcraft, seances, making idols, sex orgies to the gods for blessings of fertility were forbidden by Yahweh.
Tolerating these things for political gain was not allowed.
Remember now God's word of instruction as He led them as the Army of Jehovah into the land of Canaan.
You are saying, for them to act like the nations they dispossed was to their political advantage. But this is what they were expressly forbidden to do. That is IF they wanted the rich blessing of God upon their nation.
24 Jan 13
Originally posted by sonshipPfft.
This thread is started in reply this comment of poster Caissad4:
[quote] Well the first absurdity is the great biblical hero Samson.
If you read the story you find a man who murders 28 people in cold blood to get their coats to pay off a bet. Clearly every great religion needs a mass murderer to hold up as a hero. Shocking to me is that Christianity h ...[text shortened]... ease read the story of Samson which can be found in the book of [b]Judges in 13:1 - 16:31.[/b]
Obama is your hero. How many people has he wacked?
24 Jan 13
Originally posted by sonshipno i am not saying they should have acted like the nations that lived there. they could have allowed them to live there, and forbid some practices. not kill all people of different religion or drive them out. we today allow for freedom of religion but we don't allow satanists to sacrifice humans, or whatever.The scholar V. Barzowski interprets Ahab's marriage to Jezebel as a dynastic marriage intended to cement a Phoenician political alliance.
No doubt. And Solomon had both romantic and political reasons for securing 600 wives. He loved many foriegn women and collected women like some people collect butterfies.
But they led him away ...[text shortened]... ressly forbidden to do. That is IF they wanted the rich blessing of God upon their nation.
about the blessing of god: it is nonsense. they have a hunk of semi-desert there, no seaports. no country could prosper then or now without interacting with their neighbours. the blessing of god, that they are the chosen people was used to keep them strong and united until they got out of egypt and managed to secure a country of their own.
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24 Jan 13
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Originally posted by whodeyDid I miss something? Where were we talking about my political heros?
Pfft.
Obama is your hero. How many people has he wacked?
Do you think a "hero" can only be one who has killed a lot of people?
I don't think killing people is the only criteria for heroism.
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24 Jan 13
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no i am not saying they should have acted like the nations that lived there. they could have allowed them to live there, and forbid some practices. not kill all people of different religion or drive them out. we today allow for freedom of religion but we don't allow satanists to sacrifice humans, or whatever.
Do you remember why God told Abraham in Genesis 15 that He would not bring the Hebrews into Canaan for another 400 years? He said that the people there had not gotten bad enough yet to warrant such a takeover -
"And in the fourth generation they will come here again, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete." (Genesis 15:16)
In the steady downward slide of the Canaanite cultures, God said it would be another four centries (v. 13) before He would deem the Canaanite societies complete in their need for God's judgment through conquest.
The point of God's tolerance came to an end. It is conceivable to me that a time comes when enough is enough is enough.
about the blessing of god: it is nonsense. they have a hunk of semi-desert there, no seaports. no country could prosper then or now without interacting with their neighbours. the blessing of god, that they are the chosen people was used to keep them strong and united until they got out of egypt and managed to secure a country of their own.
I think your view is shortsighted. I hear in your comment that any nation being somewhat blessed, could have happened without this fight over Canaan.
You don't consider the big picture. This is God moving through history to regain the entire earth. His view is not just to bless His favorite nation. Far from it. The use of Israel was in view of gaining the Gentile nations and recovery the whole earth.
Up to the time of the Tower of Babel God tried to work with the created race. From the time of the scattering of the people from the Tower of Babel God sought to work with a "called" race via its forefather Abraham.
But this calling was still in view of recovering the created race.
"Now Jehovah said to Abram, Go from your land and from your relatives and from your father's house to the land that I will show you;
And I will make of you a great nation, And I will bless you and make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.
And I will bless those who bless you, and he who curses you I will curse; And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." (Genesis 12:1-3)
The conquest of Canaan and the planting there of Abraham's descedents I see as God's ongoing move to recover the earth Adam relinquished to evil spiritual forces.
Because I regard the Bible as the truth, I have to look at the matter through God's viewpoint in His communication with mankind.
I think what you see is just another nation who could very well have ekked out a decent place, not particularly important where.
Now if you read the account you'll see that there are varying levels severity of God's instructions who and who not to fight with. God is deliberate and knows exactly what He is doing.
He says in essence " Don't bother those people because I gave that earth to them. Don't bother these people because I gave that over there to them. Right here is where you go and drive out the inhabitants."
Very deliberate and goal oriented as it is related to the whole earth and its peoples.
24 Jan 13
Originally posted by sonship"Do you remember why God told Abraham in Genesis 15 that He would not bring the Hebrews into Canaan for another 400 years? He said that the people there had not gotten bad enough yet to warrant such a takeover"no i am not saying they should have acted like the nations that lived there. they could have allowed them to live there, and forbid some practices. not kill all people of different religion or drive them out. we today allow for freedom of religion but we don't allow satanists to sacrifice humans, or whatever.
Do you remember why God to ...[text shortened]... erate and goal oriented as it is related to the whole earth and its peoples.
yes, i remember that. it wasn't the biggest lie ever told in the bible. it was a big lie nonetheless. the god that would later send his only son to die on the cross, the son that preached in his name of love and salvation, not for a chosen people, but for everyone. this god would condemn an entire civilization to slaughter, because he couldn't be bothered to save them. furthermore, he knew exactly when they would be ripe for the slaughter.
bear in mind that Nazi Germany killed millions, the soviets millions, the khmer rouges also. they weren't wiped off the face of the world as nations. you could argue that they went extinct but god didn't speak to a chosen prophet to go gather the armies of the world and conquer hitler. we kinda did that on our own. and we didn't obliterate every german we could find, and turn Germany into france territory. we eliminated a dangerous and evil threat and we let the civilians be. they were given their country back.
how much more evil were the canaanites that they deserved to be slaughtered? every man, woman, child.
a god who was omnipotent couldn't persuade the canaanites to reform. a god that was benevolent and kind, wouldn't lift a finger to save them. he lit a bush on fire for moses and spoke to him. don't you think he could have lit something on fire for the canaanites?
so no, the god of the new testament did not do this. simply some nomad barbarians conquered a nation and rather than assimilate the population and risk rebelion, they murdered the crap out of them. and justified it as "god made me do it"