20 Nov 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterOh really? What if I want to reject god and not go to hell? How do I end up there, then? Who is forcing me, if not god? If I don't have the option of just being dead, then some external agent is sending me to hell. And that would be god.
God does not send people to Hell , ultimately people send themselves , or had you forgotten about free will? There will be not a single person who genuinely asks for salvation who will be turned down. Everyone will be given a fair opportunity to receive Christ in a personal way , either in this life or the next so in the final reckoning heaven could ea ...[text shortened]... ysterious way. But then that depends on whether you think his presence is with us or not.
This little game you play of saying it's people who send themselves to hell is not very convincing. We have to ask for salvation. If we don't, then we are sent to hell.
If your god just heaped reward upon the faithful, then maybe that would be OK. But by eternally punishing those who maintain a dissenting opinion, your god reveals himself to be a cruel monster. As someone else pointed out, it's only free will if I'm free to take or leave the salvation 'offer' without fear of punishment. If I'm to be punished for rejecting it, then it amounts to coersion. Then it becomes 'believe or else.'
Your assertion that people could "receive Christ without even realising it" simply boggles the mind. I'm no theologian, but I doubt you'll find many orthodox christians who would agree with that statement.
20 Nov 06
Originally posted by rwingettyoure missing his point, he is saying you have a choice, and if you choose to reject God you are "sending your self to hell". not literally, but since you had the choice to embrace God, rejecting him would be like "sending your self to hell".
Oh really? What if I want to reject god and not go to hell? How do I end up there, then? Who is forcing me, if not god? If I don't have the option of just being dead, then some external agent is sending me to hell. And that would be god.
This little game you play of saying it's people who send themselves to hell is not very convincing. We have to ask fo ...[text shortened]... I doubt you'll find many orthodox christians who would agree with that statement.
21 Nov 06
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomGive me your wallet or I'll shoot you. If you choose to reject the rendering unto me of your wallet, you'll have only yourself to blame.
youre missing his point, he is saying you have a choice, and if you choose to reject God you are "sending your self to hell". not literally, but since you had the choice to embrace God, rejecting him would be like "sending your self to hell".
21 Nov 06
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomHe wants me to give up my freedom and sense of self worth, serve under his yoke as his unworthy slave, and exhalt him as my lord and master.
your analogy is asking me to give up something of mine, God doesnt ask us to give up something of ours.
Then if I find his offer to be unattractive, I'm not free to pass on it. My actions would have the most dire consequences imaginable.
It's a protection racket. If I give god his cut of the action, he supposedly won't drown me in a flood or a tidal wave. But if I don't give in to his blackmail, then who knows what torment will be visited upon me?
21 Nov 06
Originally posted by rwingettYou've said this before, but you haven't ever supported it. How does one person's knowledge of a thing eliminate another person's choice in doing that thing?
He didn't. It's a myth. Free will is completely incompatible with an omniscient, omnipotent being.
Either that or god is a myth. Take your pick.
Here's an example of a situation involving two people: one in action, one in knowledge, relative to omniscience.
Joe tells Bob that tomorrow, Joe is going to walk into the local bank and take as much money as they have on hand, by threat of a gun.
Bob warns Joe of the consequences, but Joe will have nothing to do with Bob's pleadings otherwise. Bob knows that Joe is going to do what he has said he has planned, but Bob does and says nothing beyond warning his friend against the action.
Does Bob's knowledge of Joe's intended action in any way change Joe's action? Bob knows just as much as Joe regarding Joe's future actions: does that knowledge make Joe's action any less free?
21 Nov 06
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomRight, and the God doesn't have a gun either! So what? Would it make you feel better if I had said "Freely love me or burn for eternity"? Your point is irrelevant to the analogy. What you're faced with in both cases is a forced choice, and in both cases the one issuing the ultimatum is engaging in coercion.
your analogy is asking me to give up something of mine, God doesnt ask us to give up something of ours.