An experiment

Originally posted by CalJust
This is why I also believe that not ALL beings will enjoy this Afterlife, because for some, who have spent their entire "beingness" down here in purely selfish pursuits, that life would be Hell. In Mercy, God will have to let them cease to be, rather than have them endure the torment and remorse.

I don't think I buy that. I think human beings are all pretty much the same -except for a few people with mental conditions such as narcissism. I am pretty sure that some future afterlife that you would enjoy, most other people would enjoy too. What is more, I think you suggested that personality traits would not be carried forward anyway, and you also said bad experiences would be forgotten, so I don't know how remorse comes into it.

Hi all,

After a lovely day walking in the bush, time to get back to some of these issues.

Btw, thanks to those of you who are participating – it has been a soul-searching experience for me too, trying to verbalise some things that are only now crystallising out in my mind.

Paul Dirac

But the real you would be saddened to see that you are not joined by certain of your loved ones in Paradise, because they went the Other Way. So you must figure that your essence/mind will be tampered with in the afterlife, in order that it will not be saddened. But that means it will not be the authentic "you" living on for eternity, eh?

I don’t think there is an Other Way, at least not FOREVER. If there is a separation, it will be extinction rather than Eternal Hellfire, as I said before. However, sure, there would be sadness if some loved ones are not there with us, and there would have to be a resolution, either “messing with the memory”, or some acceptance. Who knows…

..babies born in infancy; mass extinctions caused by such stellar events; how easily can you incorporate that into your beliefs about a deity? It seems to me that only a cold, distant, sterile sort of deity would sit by and let gravitational dynamics do its thing to our home planet.

I think that it would be safe to assume that babies who died in infancy would be safe from the wrath of any self-respecting deity. I don’t buy the Catholic doctrine that EVERYBODY needs absolution or baptism before being allowed into Heaven.

Mass extinction, global chaos, etc – this has, IMHO, has less to do with a “distant, sterile sort of deity” than with the reality of balancing omnipotence with free will.

CS Lewis tackles the question of what is possible and what is not possible even for somebody that is Omnipotent. Logical contradictions are not made possible by prefacing with the words “God can”. In his book “The Problem of Pain”, (p 29) he claims that

The inexorable “Laws of Nature” which operate in defiance of human suffering or desert, which are not turned aside by prayer, seem at first sight to furnish a strong argument against the goodness and power of God. I am going to submit that not even Omnipotence could create a society of free souls without at the same time creating a relatively independent and “inexorable” Nature

So, sometimes bad things happen because of the “inexorable Nature”. This subject actually deserves an entire thread, and would cover not only Free Will, but “Why do Bad Things happen to Good people”, etc. Somebody once said that what is important on earth is NOT what happens to us, but HOW WE REACT to what happens to us. Therein lies the rub!

Twhitehead

Memories….. I cannot recall that fish pond. I don't know where in the garden it was, nor anything about it. I vaguely remember going to buy fish, but I have no recollection whatsoever about the pond.
Now suppose I suddenly recalled everything that had happened to me since the day I was born. Would I still be me? Would I want to recall it all? Suppose I get Alzheimers later in life and start to loose all my memories. Will I still be me?

You make some very good points. Actually, I don’t know why I put that in my post, that we will retain all our memories, clearly that can’t be true – or even significant. (What about Alzheimers, as you say, will we get those thoughts back?) I think what I AM trying to say, is that the real ME, my ESSENCE, is what I always was, even if my personality and my feelings and habits have changed. I have only started to explore this journey during the past two or three years, and I have been deeply influenced by the books of Eckhardt Tolle, Richard Rohr and the Enneagram. Their thinking is that the False Self is that part of me that identifies with my feelings and my personality, which protects it from hurt and seeks to “win”. The more I “observe” this False Self, from outside as it were, and separate myself from it, the sooner I will discover this True Self.

Maybe this sounds like mumbo-jumbo to you, and I won’t blame you if it does. This is what I believe Jesus taught when he said “deny yourself, take up your cross, etc”, and again “unless you die you will not truly live”. Eastern traditions call this “Enlightenment”, and “Consciousness”. Richard Rohr says that this is what Jesus meant by “Being Saved”, and not the watered down ritual taught in many churches. Again, please accept that I cannot in simple terms explain what I am still learning, and trying to understand myself. But if you are really interested, I could point you to some reading material and/or websites.

I don't think I buy that. I think human beings are all pretty much the same -except for a few people with mental conditions such as narcissism. I am pretty sure that some future afterlife that you would enjoy, most other people would enjoy too. What is more, I think you suggested that personality traits would not be carried forward anyway, and you also said bad experiences would be forgotten, so I don't know how remorse comes into it.

You may well be right. These are details that one could argue about, but rather fruitlessly.

Pudgenik

Since that time, I have done this to thousands of fallen spirits. I want to note here too. In my spiritual experiences, there have been times that some of the fallen spirits are resolved against God.

Thank you for sharing this – it took real courage.
I have not had similar experiences and don’t know how to fit it into a belief system, but then why should we? There is far more going on in the spiritual realm than we can imagine, and different people have different glimpses into that world, which would probably unsettle others. Go in peace, but be careful where you share this story!

Originally posted by CalJust
So, sometimes bad things happen because of the “inexorable Nature”.

My experience of C.S. Lewis is he seems to be a pathetic apologist. Every bit of writing I have seen of his being quoted in support of theism does not actually explain anything, just as I don't think the quote you gave explains anything.

I think you do have a major theological problem to deal with. For some reason you seem to think God is good. Based on what you have told us so far, I don't think you really have sufficient reason to think this. But lets grant that you wish it to be so. However, given the amount of suffering in the world, it just doesn't add up. And no, I don't think C.S. Lewis answers this at all.
Remember this is a God, seemingly capable of answering some of your prayers, yet inexplicably, he allows great suffering to befall other people, many of whom do pray fervently for assistance. It just doesn't add up.

I think what I AM trying to say, is that the real ME, my ESSENCE, is what I always was, even if my personality and my feelings and habits have changed.
My own feeling is that I do not have a permanent ESSENCE. I am not the person I was as a child, nor the person I was last year nor the person I will be 10 years from now.
If some such ESSENCE does exist, but it does not include my memories and my character etc then I honestly don't care whether or not it survives my physical death or what happens to it thereafter. I don't identify with it.
If you cut off my big toe, and sent it to paradise, I would not feel any different than if you cut it off and burned it in an oven for a million years. It is not me. I feel the same way about ESSENCE.
What about you, what attachment do you feel towards your ESSENCE?

Originally posted by CalJust
This is an experiment, and like all good experiments the outcome is not clear - it could be interesting, but it could also fall flat on its proverbial face...

With very few exceptions, most threads in this Forum discuss subjects that have been discussed ad nauseum umpteen times before - like creation, evolution, eternal damnation, etc. In none of these um ...[text shortened]... r deal of practical experience on this third rock from the sun.

Here goes - any takers?

CJ

So here's the deal: I am prepared to put myself on the line and promise to answer as simply and honestly as I can any question anybody might want to put to me concerning my beliefs, and my reasons for holding them. I only reserve the right to terminate a discussion if it appears to deteriorate into aggression, slander or ridicule.

With Christians, I may argue from the Bible, (if it is relevant) ; with atheists I promise to stay far away from any author or source that is not mutually acceptable.

I would have a couple questions.

(1) Do you take it to be the case that your particular theistic belief is rationally justified?
(2) If the answer to (1) is no, then do you think this belief of yours is justified in some other way (e.g., pragmatically)? If the answer to (1) is yes, then what constitutes/confers the rational justification?

For my part, I hold the belief that your God does not exist. For rational justification for my belief, I would point to rational arguments, such as particular formulations of the evidential problem of evil; the Euthyphro dilemma; the problem of ignorance, etc.

Originally posted by LemonJello
[quote]So here's the deal: I am prepared to put myself on the line and promise to answer as simply and honestly as I can any question anybody might want to put to me concerning my beliefs, and my reasons for holding them. I only reserve the right to terminate a discussion if it appears to deteriorate into aggression, slander or ridicule.

With Christian ...[text shortened]... lations of the evidential problem of evil; the Euthyphro dilemma; the problem of ignorance, etc.

So (basically) nothing new.
Just the same old tired tripe of crap...
which has all been refuted repeatedly.

Some things never change, it appears.

Originally posted by LemonJello
[quote]So here's the deal: I am prepared to put myself on the line and promise to answer as simply and honestly as I can any question anybody might want to put to me concerning my beliefs, and my reasons for holding them. I only reserve the right to terminate a discussion if it appears to deteriorate into aggression, slander or ridicule.

With Christians, ...[text shortened]... ormulations of the evidential problem of evil; the Euthyphro dilemma; the problem of ignorance, etc.

"If God didn't exist, what possible difference would it make whether or not people put their faith in Him?" -JV

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
So (basically) nothing new.
Just the same old tired tripe of crap...
which has all been refuted repeatedly.

Some things never change, it appears.

Chaff.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"If God didn't exist, what possible difference would it make whether or not people put their faith in Him?" -JV

I already responded in some detail to this question when it was initially posed in the forum some time ago. Go find the old thread if you like.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Chaff.

Good comeback.
Your dismissive tone only underscores your lack of responses for the solutions to these so-called "problems."

All of them require a tortured framing combined with removal of complete portions of reality in order to gain any traction whatsoever.
Put things back into proper perspective, and all objections serve as reinforcements of the realities set forth from a biblical, theistic position.
Gone are the convolutions required of the other assertions.

But you already knew that, didn't you?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Good comeback.
Your dismissive tone only underscores your lack of responses for the solutions to these so-called "problems."

All of them require a tortured framing combined with removal of complete portions of reality in order to gain any traction whatsoever.
Put things back into proper perspective, and all objections serve as reinforcements of the re ...[text shortened]... are the convolutions required of the other assertions.

But you already knew that, didn't you?

I'm afraid all you deserve is this: 😴

I'm sorry it has come to that, but it has indeed.

Originally posted by LemonJello
I already responded in some detail to this question when it was initially posed in the forum some time ago. Go find the old thread if you like.

'If RHP's LemonJello insists that God doesn't exist, what the hell possible difference would it make whether Grampy Bobby has placed his faith in the Son of God, Jesus Christ, for his eternal salvation?' (Personal paraphrase of the JV quote) Well?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
'If RHP's LemonJello insists that God doesn't exist, what the hell possible difference would it make whether Grampy Bobby has placed his faith in the Son of God, Jesus Christ, for his eternal salvation?' (Personal paraphrase of the JV quote) Well?

Again: go read the old threads that deal with this, if you want to. Please stop hijacking this particular thread. CalJust has made an offer, and I am taking him up on it. CalJust appears to be very sincere in his approach here, and that's a lot more than I could say for either you or FreakyKBH. I am genuinely interested in how CalJust will respond to my questions. For you and FreakyKBH, take your non-contributions elsewhere, if you please.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Again: go read the old threads that deal with this, if you want to. Please stop hijacking this particular thread. CalJust has made an offer, and I am taking him up on it. CalJust appears to be very sincere in his approach here, and that's a lot more than I could say for either you or FreakyKBH. I am genuinely interested in how CalJust will respond to my questions. For you and FreakyKBH, take your non-contributions elsewhere, if you please.

Ok.

Originally posted by CalJust
In his book “The Problem of Pain”, (p 29) he claims that...

You are similar to me in that we both like to examine beliefs that are contrary to the ones we hold to, to give them a chance to persuade us--even if in practice they never really sway us once we have arrived at what might be called the mature years of our lives. 😉 You might therefore find it a nice challenge to read Bart Ehrman's book God's Problem. Ehrman takes quite a different view of things than Lewis did.

Originally posted by CalJust
Hi all,

After a lovely day walking in the bush, time to get back to some of these issues.

Btw, thanks to those of you who are participating – it has been a soul-searching experience for me too, trying to verbalise some things that are only now crystallising out in my mind.

[b]Paul Dirac

[quote]But the real you would be saddened to see that y ...[text shortened]... d, which would probably unsettle others. Go in peace, but be careful where you share this story![/b]

Thank you! I recognize there are many faiths here (as in the world). I do not belittle any of them, as all are my brothers and sisters. This is including the Atheists and those who oppose me altogether. Yet God allows the rain to fall on us all. (snow in the polar regions). So my spiritual work, that God gives me to do must not take sides as well.

There are people in this world who are extreemly evil. Their whole focus is themselves and nothing else matters.

I think you know this CalJust, but i am catholic too. ha ha, i hear it all.

Of the catholic thinking on aborted children and all babies, children or even adults that can not comprehend, like a mental disorder. All are subject to God's Grace, and the judgements that are given to "us", they are free of.

It may seem difficult to comprehend a place of eternal punishment.
God created us as eternal beings. But it isn't God who sends those people to hell, it is they themselves. When they stand before God, all God wants to do is love them, but they are the ones who refuse to love. Some hate love even in God's presence.