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An Observation

Spirituality

josephw
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Originally posted by Agerg
If one believes there is "no God", but there is, then by definition that one is an enemy of God.

I do not make this assertion for the purpose of being sarcastic or insulting. I am simply stating the obivious.

Call me stupid (perhaps I am) but I don't see how this is obvious...see suppose there does exist a god (or gods even!), a god(s) that doesn't ...[text shortened]... nce...what if a god that did exist didn't really care and would call them friend eitherway?
I don't think we are stupid, but I do think we say, do, and think things that are stupid. All of us.

It may not be obvious to you, but it is to me. If God is, and He is who He says He is, then it is obvious that when one denies His existance one naturally becomes His enemy.

It may appear to some that a God that would call one His enemy is a contradiction to the definition of God. But then that would make the one defining God the authority. God defines Himself. The record of who God is, is contained in the Bible. The message is clear to all who believe.

The above is what I believe, but I'm open to debate.

kirksey957
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Originally posted by josephw
I don't think we are stupid, but I do think we say, do, and think things that are stupid. All of us.

It may not be obvious to you, but it is to me. If God is, and He is who He says He is, then it is obvious that when one denies His existance one naturally becomes His enemy.

It may appear to some that a God that would call one His enemy is a contradicti ...[text shortened]... e message is clear to all who believe.

The above is what I believe, but I'm open to debate.
You say that the record of who God is is contained in the Bible. Do you believe that there is any revelation of God outside of the Bible?

Sometimes the "message" is confusing and unclear as the Bible which you say defines God has competing and contradicting images of God. Would you not agree that this is true?

a

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Originally posted by gaychessplayer
[b]After having been a participant on the Spirituality Forum for some time, I've noticed that about 80% of the posts that contain sarcasm and personal attacks are posted by atheists and agnostics. [...]
I think, you make a logical error. You imply, that all people using sarkasm are agnostic, because if they where not, they would not use sarcasm.

That does not fit.

There are a lot people, being free of any suspicion of being agnostic or atheistic, who are using extremely sarcasm.
For example -- the pope.
To say, being homosexual is no sin, you just are not allowed to -eh- perform,
is sarcasm in its purest form.
(btw I am a Roman Catholic)

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Originally posted by afx
I think, you make a logical error. You imply, that all people using sarkasm are agnostic, because if they where not, they would not use sarcasm.

That does not fit.

There are a lot people, being free of any suspicion of being agnostic or atheistic, who are using extremely sarcasm.
For example -- the pope.
To say, being homosexual is no sin, you just are not allowed to -eh- perform,
is sarcasm in its purest form.
(btw I am a Roman Catholic)
I never said, nor do I believe, that "all people using sarcasm are agnostic." Nor do I think that sarcasm is never appropriate. It's just that nastiness, insults and sarcasm, in my experience, are more common on atheist/agnostic websites and popular books than they are on theistic websites and books. That is my experience as I perceive it to be. I acknowledge that my perception may be inaccurate. That's one reason why forums like this are so educational: we can give each other a "reality check."

josephw
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Originally posted by kirksey957
You say that the record of who God is is contained in the Bible. Do you believe that there is any revelation of God outside of the Bible?

Sometimes the "message" is confusing and unclear as the Bible which you say defines God has competing and contradicting images of God. Would you not agree that this is true?
Yes. God has reveled Himself in nature and in the universe as a whole. But the details concerning who He is, and what He is doing, are contained in the Bible. I realise that this is too much for folks to handle these days for a whole host of reasons, but any other explaination only serves to add to the confussion. At some point one will have to recognise that there must be a final authority, otherwise one will be doomed to swim in a sea of contradictions.


At it's core the message of the Bible is unequivocal. By definition the suggestion that God is contradictory, or that there are contradictions in the Bible, concerning anything at all, only proves that it is us who fail to understand its' meaning.

To me, reason and logic dictates that the one who made us has provided a means by which we can know Him. Why would God be the cause of confussion? How can we continue to think that God hasn't been perfectly clear? If I fail to comprehend, it isn't because God has tricked me, or that He has made the thing I wish to understand too obscure. For what purpose? No. It is because of my own stubborn stupidity.

No one will ever know or understand everything the Bible says. At least not in this life time. But with a little work, and with a heart that trusts God, and with faith, one can learn the thing that otherwise confounds and confuses those who, in large part, have already decided not to believe.

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Originally posted by josephw
...... Why would God be the cause of confussion? ....
Islam teaches that the only way to God is via Islam. All other teachings are wrong and infidels/non-believers are doomed to hell.

Christianity teaches that the only way to God is via Christianity. All other teachings are wrong and infidels/non-believers are doomed to hell.

Whats the source of this confusion?
Man or God?

Rajk999
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Originally posted by josephw
. ....the one who made us has provided a means by which we can know Him. ...
Know Him? I take it you mean through Christianity?

What about all the billions and billions of people over time that knew nothing of Christianity?

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Originally posted by josephw
...At it's core the message of the Bible is unequivocal. By definition the suggestion that God is contradictory, or that there are contradictions in the Bible, concerning anything at all, only proves that it is us who fail to understand its' meaning.

...Why would God be the cause of confusion? How can we continue to think that God hasn't been perfectly clear?....
It's very simple. It's because God deals with humans. Mankind wrote the Bible so it contains all the contradictions of human self-awareness and existence.

And while the Bible may be construed to be the Word of God, men have had the upper hand in which words you hear. What I mean is that blind acceptance of every facet of the biblical canon is to ignore the history and politics of how that particular canon came into being. In that regard, God had nothing to do with the biblical canon - that was all the politicking of men.

If one chooses to cast a blind eye to this temporal interference then you will wallow happily in ignorance, but it will still be ignorance. My guess is that most just prefer to be happy.

josephw
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Islam teaches that the only way to God is via Islam. All other teachings are wrong and infidels/non-believers are doomed to hell.

Christianity teaches that the only way to God is via Christianity. All other teachings are wrong and infidels/non-believers are doomed to hell.

Whats the source of this confusion?
Man or God?
Man of course!

josephw
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Know Him? I take it you mean through Christianity?

What about all the billions and billions of people over time that knew nothing of Christianity?
I can't give you a satisfactory answer.

Without Christ no one is saved.

If I were you I wouldn't be too concerned about questions that only lead to more confussion and think about where you are going to spend eternity.

You can choose between any faith you like. If you think it will get you eternal life.

The message of the Bible is that Jesus paid your sins debt. If you think you have sin, then the only sure answer to it is Christ.

All other faiths will burden you with performing works in order to have eternal life. God is offering eternal life as a free gift. All you have to do is trust in what Jesus did at the cross on your behalf.

It's that simple.

josephw
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Originally posted by Badwater
It's very simple. It's because God deals with humans. Mankind wrote the Bible so it contains all the contradictions of human self-awareness and existence.

And while the Bible may be construed to be the Word of God, men have had the upper hand in which words you hear. What I mean is that blind acceptance of every facet of the biblical canon is to ignore t ...[text shortened]... y in ignorance, but it will still be ignorance. My guess is that most just prefer to be happy.
"Mankind wrote the Bible so it contains all the contradictions of human self-awareness and existence."

This is where you are confussed. The Bible contains the word of God. Every word in the Bible is there because God caused them to be there.

You've been lied to. You contradict your self when you site man as your authority while claiming the words in the Bible are not God's.

If the words in the Bible are man's words and not God's, then believing what a man says about the Bible is circular reasoning. If there are men crazy enough to invent the Bible and call it God's word, then it only follows that there are men who are crazy enough to invent the idea that the Bible is not the word of God.

You won't know for sure untill you tune your ear in
to God's voice. And don't think I mean audibly either.

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Originally posted by josephw
.....All other faiths will burden you with performing works in order to have eternal life. ...
The idea of works being a burden is very un-Christianlike but very MartinLutherlike. You have no idea how much that one statement tells me about your personality. Do you realise that Martin Luther cannot give you salvation?

josephw
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Originally posted by Rajk999
The idea of works being a burden is very un-Christianlike but very MartinLutherlike. You have no idea how much that one statement tells me about your personality. Do you realise that Martin Luther cannot give you salvation?
What? Do you think a free gift is something one has to earn?

And, what would be the point in Jesus dying on the cross to pay our sins debt if all we had to do was a "work" to recieve the gift?

Don't you get it? Jesus did the work for us because He was righteous enough to do it.

The right to enter into the presents of God is complete righteousness. One would have to keep the law perfectly to do so. No one can do it except Jesus, so He paid sins debt on our behalf.

Are you ignorant about what the Bible says about all this? Be honest!

Rajk999
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Originally posted by josephw
What? Do you think a free gift is something one has to earn?

And, what would be the point in Jesus dying on the cross to pay our sins debt if all we had to do was a "work" to recieve the gift?

Don't you get it? Jesus did the work for us because He was righteous enough to do it.

The right to enter into the presents of God is complete righteousness. ...[text shortened]... debt on our behalf.

Are you ignorant about what the Bible says about all this? Be honest!
Oh .. sorry. Im ignorant. Christ is ignorant, You are right.

josephw
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Oh .. sorry. Im ignorant. Christ is ignorant, You are right.
Great point. Wish I had thought of that. 😕

What's the problem? Is it too easy for you?

What makes you think you can do something for God that will gain you admittance into His presents?

I'm not being sarcastic Raj. I'm simply telling you what I believe, and I can back it up with the word of God.

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