27 Jan 07
Originally posted by dj2beckerIf you put homesexuality and testosterone into google it's there. Also homosexuality and brain. It's not hard to find. It's possible that there are different causes (like for example if someone is psychologically disturbed) but the sex drive is so powerful that it takes some overridding. It's posssible some people are gay for other than biological reasons.
I would love to see this research. Interesting that I know many ex-homosexuals that have confessed their sin and have been set free from their homosexual inclinations.
See: http://www.cwfa.org/images/content/bornorbred.pdf
The problem for the church is that even if only a handful of gay men or women are proved to be gay as a result of biological factors then the sin doctrine is in grave , grave trouble. The more we find out about brain development and what happens in the womb , and how female and male brains differ in structure and why they are like that.
I found a good objective site-http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html
27 Jan 07
Originally posted by hoven5thConsider this hoven5th, this is an open forum where we, of different veiws, debate and discuss ideas, concepts, and issues that are of interest to us. It's an open dialouge. I, for one, am not in the business of judging people. That would be ignorant. I try to be objective, and that can be difficult when talking about subjective issues. I'm far from perfect. I try to be careful about what I say as to not offend anyone. But there are those who are easily offended when someone, such as myself, references the Bible ( The Word of God ), as a guide for understanding this world. Granted there are some very vitrolic, holyer than thou types of christains out there, but I am not one of those.
If God's doing all this judging, maybe we should refrain from it
So some of you non beleivers think I'm diluted. Shall we call each other names then. Why don't we sterotype each other. Let's write each other off as lunitics and just get it over with.
I'm not playing that game. I'm here to play chess with those that enjoy the game like I do. And while I'm at it I will persue an intelligent, open, and honest discussion/ debate with other likeminded indviduals.
I hope that doesn't offend anyone.
27 Jan 07
1 edit
Originally posted by dj2beckerI've got some questions for you (from one christian to another)
I would love to see this research. Interesting that I know many ex-homosexuals that have confessed their sin and have been set free from their homosexual inclinations.
See: http://www.cwfa.org/images/content/bornorbred.pdf
What do you feel causes you to be heterosexual? Was it a lifestyle choice? Could it have gone either way , or did you just think to yourself "I'll go with the opposite sex thing - it seems more enjoyable" ? Or did it feel as if every fibre of your body and mind was screaming at you saying "you are heterosexual" . If you are a man you will know how powerful and biological this programming is. It runs deep , as deep as the reflex to blink or the desire for food. Why? I suggest it's because you are hot wired to be heterosexual. You could no longer choose to enjoy homosexual sex , than you could chose to hold your breath till you suffocate. Your brain will not let you enjoy it , you are programmed for something else.
What does this tell us? Well combined with research into sexuality (which shows that if you bring up boys to be feminine they still play with guns anyway and that women who have hormonal deficiencies in the womb tend to give birth to tomboy girls) it shows that sexuality is hot wired into our brains. People do not change their sexuality they just stop pretending they are heterosexual. We also know that sexuality is woven into our brains (ie boys have higher spatial awareness , girls talk earlier) so why not homo/hetro sexuality? It looks highly likely that homosexuality results when this process of hot wiring our brains goes wrong. And anyway , if God hasn't hot wired us to be hetrosexual what's he playing at . Is he playing dice with our sexuality?
Now you can argue that sin has caused falleness and resulted in things going wrong but that would place homosexuality in the realms of disabilities (and why would someone with cytistic fibrosis need to repent or confess it as sin?). For example , why do we not think that transexuals born with two genitalia , or non-descript genitalia need to repent and confess? Surely it's because we realise that they suffer from a sexual deformity from birth that is not a life choice. BUT because we can't see the brain we somehow think it's not an organ , but it is. It can be affected in just the same way.
I believe that science and religion will go head to head on this just like they did with evolution and Adam and Eve , and we know what damage that did to the church and we lost!!! It's time to realise that the Bible can be homophobic just like any other book.....but we can still believe in Christ as well.
http://www.arlenetaylor.org/faq/sexuality.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/10/031022062408.htm
27 Jan 07
The whole born-a-homo bit was created so homosexuality was proved as not a sin. I've noticed you athiests try to destroy whatever we base our arguement on, no matter how stupid. The Bible, free will... SHEESH! In case you haven't noticed, "the devil made me do it" doesn't exactly stand up in court. You have the choice to lie, to steal, to cheat, to commit adultery, to be homosexual. It all ties in.
27 Jan 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterPlease explain why, scientifically, you think homosexuality is a malfuntioning gene or whatever. Why are there more homos in Los Angeles then there are in New York City?\
I've got some questions for you (from one christian to another)
What do you feel causes you to be heterosexual? Was it a lifestyle choice? Could it have gone either way , or did you just think to yourself "I'll go with the opposite sex thing - it seems more enjoyable" ? Or did it feel as if every fibre of your body and mind was screaming at you sa ...[text shortened]... /faq/sexuality.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/10/031022062408.htm
As for the Creaion/Evolution thing, we haven't lost that war... and we never will.
28 Jan 07
Originally posted by AcemasterThis raises some interesting questions. If we are prone to a particular sinful behavoir genetically, does this absolve us from being accountable for engaging in that particular behavoir? Also, if we are prone genetically to a sinful behavoir, would this indicate that God predestined us to a particular behavoir thus bringing into question as to whether such behavoir could then be considered "sinful" because God allowed us to be born in such a condition?
The whole born-a-homo bit was created so homosexuality was proved as not a sin. I've noticed you athiests try to destroy whatever we base our arguement on, no matter how stupid. The Bible, free will... SHEESH! In case you haven't noticed, "the devil made me do it" doesn't exactly stand up in court. You have the choice to lie, to steal, to cheat, to commit adultery, to be homosexual. It all ties in.
I would say that people are prone to certain sinful behavoirs genetically. For example, some people have a genetic predisposition for alcholism after taking one or two drinks as where others can drink and drink and drink and never develope a dependance. In short, some of us are more prone to adictive personalities than other people. Does this then mean that God wanted certain people to become alcoholics? Also, does this mean that since God allowed them to have such a genetic makeup that alcoholim is not seen by God as sinful behavoir? I would say that the answer to both questions is no. Because we are all born into a fallen state, we all have sinful tendencies. I do think that genetics plays a role in this fact. We are prone to develope certain sinful behavoirs based on our genetic makeup, yet we can overcome such tendencies. Even though we are flawed does not mean that we should continue give into such flawed behavoir nor does it mean we are not accountable for such flawed behavoir. It reminds me of someone who is a mass murderer blaming all of his problems on an abusive parent. Granted, he may have been infuenced negatively by circumstances beyond his control to become a mass murderer, however, in the end he should be accountable with how he chose to deal with such tradgedy.
I also do not think that man was designed to have a sinful tendencies, rather, man chose to inflict this upon himself. Man chose sin and the subsequent sin nature, God did not chose it for him.
28 Jan 07
Originally posted by Acemasterdoes this mean that the Bible (and therefore God) teaches that execution is acceptable? and since execution is just an acceptable murder commited by someone with power of some form, does this not contradict with the no murder thing (or, Thou shalt not commit murder if you prefer) which is one of the 10 commandments (i believe the 6th, but not sure on that without checking up first
It was like an execution.
28 Jan 07
Originally posted by NordlysMaybe for money/power?
Maybe you should talk to one of them. As I am not Christian myself, I don't care all that much about their reasons, but if a priest who used to be against homosexuality changes his or her mind after years of struggling with the issue, as this soon-to-be-bishop and another Norwegian priest I know of did, I am sure they have good reasons.
Or they want to please man and not God?
28 Jan 07
Originally posted by Joshua BThe Jews had more then just the 10 commandments. I believe that there are 613 rules that they had to follow nad if they broke one then they where guilty of them all.
does this mean that the Bible (and therefore God) teaches that execution is acceptable? and since execution is just an acceptable murder commited by someone with power of some form, does this not contradict with the no murder thing (or, Thou shalt not commit murder if you prefer) which is one of the 10 commandments (i believe the 6th, but not sure on that without checking up first
A side not for you. Jesus said if you hate your brother (fellow man) then you are guilty of murder of the heart.
28 Jan 07
Originally posted by AcemasterWe know that the Bible says that people are either born a Jew or a sinner, but still Jews are also sinners. So therefore if we all where born sinners we all have the ability to be gay, but satan blinds us by only having a few be gay and not all of us.
The whole born-a-homo bit was created so homosexuality was proved as not a sin. I've noticed you athiests try to destroy whatever we base our arguement on, no matter how stupid. The Bible, free will... SHEESH! In case you haven't noticed, "the devil made me do it" doesn't exactly stand up in court. You have the choice to lie, to steal, to cheat, to commit adultery, to be homosexual. It all ties in.
28 Jan 07
Originally posted by RBHILLthanks for the information, although i was actually aware of it, however with all due respect i fail to see the relevance in this context as my original question still remains unanswered - is that the message the Bible promotes in this matter? if a person does something that you consider to be objectable (on whatever level, morally, spiritually etc) then you can take thier life if you call it an execution? because that really doesnt sound like the christianity that i understand, the one that promotes forgiveness, understanding, compassion and equality for all man kind. just a thought
The Jews had more then just the 10 commandments. I believe that there are 613 rules that they had to follow nad if they broke one then they where guilty of them all.
A side not for you. Jesus said if you hate your brother (fellow man) then you are guilty of murder of the heart.
28 Jan 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterOK, so if I am heterosexual Christian, am I free to have sex with any one of the opposite sex I desire? After all, I am "wired" to do so, no? Has the Bible not set up ground rules regarding such conduct that may frustrate my wishes to have sex?
I've got some questions for you (from one christian to another)
What do you feel causes you to be heterosexual? Was it a lifestyle choice? Could it have gone either way , or did you just think to yourself "I'll go with the opposite sex thing - it seems more enjoyable" ? Or did it feel as if every fibre of your body and mind was screaming at you sa ...[text shortened]... /faq/sexuality.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/10/031022062408.htm
If you value your pleasure more than you value doing the will of God then yoiur life will demonstrate this fact.
28 Jan 07
Originally posted by whodeyA heterosexual Christian (or atheist) is free to have sex with a member of the same sex but they are unlikely to do it because they would not enjoy it , their brain would find the idea repulsive. You are free to eat doggie doo but you are not going to because your brain has hot wired you evolutionarily (for good reason) to not do it. Similarily , many gay people have no desire to have heterosexual sex.
OK, so if I am heterosexual Christian, am I free to have sex with any one of the opposite sex I desire? After all, I am "wired" to do so, no? Has the Bible not set up ground rules regarding such conduct that may frustrate my wishes to have sex?
If you value your pleasure more than you value doing the will of God then yoiur life will demonstrate this fact.
However , a heterosexual brain is hot wired to find certain things attractive about the opposite sex and to be tempted to reproduce , but one could only be tempted to have homosexual sex if your brain was taking you down that road. I personally have no struggles whatsoever in fighting any temptation at all to have homosexual sex with anyone. I never think about it. It's not on my radar. My brain has been lucky enough to have received the right wiring. Other peoples brains may not be the same.
The comparison with infidelity does not work because you have to find the idea desirable in the first place to be tempted. The fact that a homosexual finds the same sex attractive at all is evidence that in some way they experience different desires than me , so comparing them with my heterosexuality doesn't work. If you had a gay couple who were married and one was tempted to be unfaithful then that could be seen as sin because there is choice involved.
28 Jan 07
Originally posted by AcemasterThe LA/New York thing is a no brainer.
Please explain why, scientifically, you think homosexuality is a malfuntioning gene or whatever. Why are there more homos in Los Angeles then there are in New York City?\
As for the Creaion/Evolution thing, we haven't lost that war... and we never will.
The prevalence of homosexuality in LA could easily be explained by permissiveness. If a certain city is perceived as being more tolerant or permissive it will be more likely to attract homosexuals to live there. Also , you might be more likely to come out in such a city thus artificially raising the numbers because there could be large numbers of people in NY who haven't come out yet.
If you want me to explain the science behind homosexuality and brain devevlopment/ genes / biology etc then you will need much better analytical skills than this initial statement implies.
It matters not whether creationism is true or not ...we still lost the battle for hearts and minds because we labelled scientists as trying to subvert religion whereas they were only looking at the evidence. The church came across as dogmatic and frightened to embrace any evidence/ideas that might challenge doctrine...and that made us look foolish. Ditto now with sexuality.
28 Jan 07
Originally posted by AcemasterPlease explain why, scientifically, you think homosexuality is a malfuntioning gene or whatever.ACE
Please explain why, scientifically, you think homosexuality is a malfuntioning gene or whatever. Why are there more homos in Los Angeles then there are in New York City?\
As for the Creaion/Evolution thing, we haven't lost that war... and we never will.
Are you sure you want to do this?
Step One- Recognise what we DO already know about sexuality and then work from there.
FACT 1 - Masculine/feminine brains are different in structure and have different capabilities according to sex orientation. BUT some men are known to have highly feminised brains (sensitive male) and some women are known to have highly masculinised brains ( tom boy).
FACT 2- Distortions of sexual identity do already occurr on a physical / visual level - ref , intersex babies , transexuals , genital abnormalities. Therefore , it is accepted that biological problems to do with which gender a baby is stem from birth/ gene/ Womb problems.
FACT 3- The foetus in the womb starts off as female and will develop into a female unless there is some hormonal interference to make it male. We know that disturbances in hormonal /testosterone levels in foetal development can cause homosexual behaviour in rats. We also know that the hormonal process in the womb can go wrong.
FACT 4- The brain plays a significant role in sexuality and certain parts of the brain are hot wired at birth. The brain and hormonal levels can drive sexual appetite for example. Women have been shown to be more sexually active when they are ovulating even if they don't know it.
Now before I go any further , what do you make of this lot?