Originally posted by divegeesterBump for roigam.
Here you are, it was all the way back on the previous page 🙄
Originally posted by divegeester
[b]Three points for you to consider[b] and respond to please:
Michael the archangel is only mentioned specifically by name 5 times in the Bible and never in association with being Jesus Christ.
1 Thes 4:16 also says that the LORD w ...[text shortened]... that God has never said these things to any angel.
What do you think of my three points?[/b][/b]
Bump for roigam. Again.
Originally posted by divegeester
Three points for you to consider[b] and respond to please:
Michael the archangel is only mentioned specifically by name 5 times in the Bible and never in association with being Jesus Christ.
1 Thes 4:16 also says that the LORD will return with the "trump of God". If you accept that the piece "with the the voice of the/an archangel" denotes that Jesus is the archangel Michael, will you also apply the same thinking and conclude that "the trump of God" denotes that Jesus is God? You will not of course, but I challenge you to consider this parallel and the veracity of the position you have been taught.
Also in Hebrews 1:5-13, look at this...
For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.” But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak You will fold them up, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not fail.” But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
Paul is clearly calling out the challenge that God has never said these things to any angel.
What do you think of my three points?[/b][/b]
Originally posted by divegeester
Bump for roigam. Again. 4th time.
Originally posted by divegeester
Three points for you to consider and respond to please:
Michael the archangel is only mentioned specifically by name 5 times in the Bible and never in association with being Jesus Christ.
1 Thes 4:16 also says that the LORD will return with the "trump of God". If you accept that the piece "with the the voice of the/an archangel" denotes that Jesus is the archangel Michael, will you also apply the same thinking and conclude that "the trump of God" denotes that Jesus is God? You will not of course, but I challenge you to consider this parallel and the veracity of the position you have been taught.
Also in Hebrews 1:5-13, look at this...
For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.” But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak You will fold them up, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not fail.” But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
Paul is clearly calling out the challenge that God has never said these things to any angel.
What do you think of my three points?
Originally posted by divegeesterAs far as 1 Thess. I don't have a concise ref. but it would seem that Jesus (Michael the archangel in his prehuman existence) would himself blow God's trumpet to start the war of the great day of God Almighty, especially since Jesus is leading God's army of angels to that war.
Bump for roigam. Again.
Originally posted by divegeester
[b]Three points for you to consider[b] and respond to please:
Michael the archangel is only mentioned specifically by name 5 times in the Bible and never in association with being Jesus Christ.
1 Thes 4:16 also says that the LORD will return with the "trump of God". I ...[text shortened]... God has never said these things to any angel.
What do you think of my three points?[/b][/b][/b]
Also for Hebrews, this is a great privilege for Michael to be called God's Son.
The verse doesn't say God "never" said that to an angel. It only asks,"To which of the angels has He ever said..."
Side question, how can God be begotten or born? Jesus(Michael) obviously was.
(John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Our faith in Jesus as God's "1st born son" is the only way to approach the Father. If we only go as far as Jesus, we have not gone far enough.
(Matthew 7:21-23) “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’
You seem to be a thoughtful person so these are just some points to consider.
While it is true that trumpets were used to give a war cry, it is likely in this case that the trumpet was used to call God's people together through a resurrection.
*** w79 6/15 p. 25 par. 16 “The Dead in Christ Shall Rise First” ***
16 Another thing that accompanies Christ’s descent from heaven is the sound of “God’s trumpet.” (1 Thess. 4:16) The trumpet in this case is not a war signal for assembling troops that they might fight and put the enemy to death. Rather, the blast of “God’s trumpet” is a peaceful one for assembling Jehovah’s people, as when the two silver trumpets were blown in Moses’ day to assemble the 12 tribes of Israel. (Num. 10:1-10)
Originally posted by roigamThis actually makes sense because the resurrection is through Christ Jesus using God's power as he did with Lazarus. See John 11:11-14, 41.
While it is true that trumpets were used to give a war cry, it is likely in this case that the trumpet was used to call God's people together through a resurrection.
*** w79 6/15 p. 25 par. 16 “The Dead in Christ Shall Rise First” ***
16 Another thing that accompanies Christ’s descent from heaven is the sound of “God’s trumpet.” (1 Thess. 4:16) The trumpet ...[text shortened]... two silver trumpets were blown in Moses’ day to assemble the 12 tribes of Israel. (Num. 10:1-10)
Originally posted by roigamDid Moses blow both trumpets?
While it is true that trumpets were used to give a war cry, it is likely in this case that the trumpet was used to call God's people together through a resurrection.
*** w79 6/15 p. 25 par. 16 “The Dead in Christ Shall Rise First” ***
16 Another thing that accompanies Christ’s descent from heaven is the sound of “God’s trumpet.” (1 Thess. 4:16) The trumpet ...[text shortened]... two silver trumpets were blown in Moses’ day to assemble the 12 tribes of Israel. (Num. 10:1-10)
Originally posted by roigamDoes a Commander-in-Chief usually blow the war trumpet or does he have one of his troops do it? Have you ever been in the military?
As far as 1 Thess. I don't have a concise ref. but it would seem that Jesus (Michael the archangel in his prehuman existence) would himself blow God's trumpet to start the war of the great day of God Almighty, especially since Jesus is leading God's army of angels to that war.
Also for Hebrews, this is a great privilege for Michael to be called God's Son.
T ...[text shortened]... of lawlessness!’
You seem to be a thoughtful person so these are just some points to consider.
Originally posted by roigamNow you have decided that you do want to return to your thread and address legitimate questions put to you, let's keep to the topic in hand rather going off into "side questions".
As far as 1 Thess. I don't have a concise ref. but it would seem that Jesus (Michael the archangel in his prehuman existence) would himself blow God's trumpet to start the war of the great day of God Almighty, especially since Jesus is leading God's army of angels to that war.
Also for Hebrews, this is a great privilege for Michael to be called God's Son.
T ...[text shortened]... ay God "never" said that to an angel. It only asks,"To which of the angels has He ever said..."
You say you "do not have a concise reference" and that "it would seem" ... that the archangels pre-human existence...
...how can we debate this topic if you base your understanding merely on what you have been taught by your church leaders without robust scriptural evidence and also based on what something "seems" to you to be true?
As for your dissection of the scripture in Hebrews "when did god ever...?" and saying that "the verse doesn't say God never" - come on roigam! Do you really believe that when some one says "when did I ever say such-and-such" that they are actually saying that they DID say it?
Let's be honest with each other shall we.
🙂
Originally posted by divegeesterI want to sincerely thank you. I had not looked into the point about the trumpet Jesus had when he returned. I looked a little further and learned an interesting point about how the trumpet was used in Israel that gave me a very encouraging thought for what is happening today. Thank you very much for that point.
Now you have decided that you do want to return to your thread and address legitimate questions put to you, let's keep to the topic in hand rather going off into "side questions".
You say you "do not have a concise reference" and that "it would seem" ... that the archangels pre-human existence...
...how can we debate this topic if you base your u ...[text shortened]... ey are actually saying that they DID say it?
Let's be honest with each other shall we.
🙂
btw I seem to have a difficult time finding threads I have been involved with. There are so many interesting posts being made by so many. As I seem to be falling short in responding properly and have not yet learned the proper balance or control over my enthusiasm it is probably best to back off for a while and just learn from how you experienced posters do it.
I'm open to helpful suggestions though. Sorry if I have disappointed any.
Originally posted by roigamI understand that you are now trying to be conciliatory which is always appreciated, however I'm little confused about your "sincerity" here, as earlier you were ignoring me based on your stated explanation that you didn't want to engage with people who were "set in their beliefs". I guess time will tell.
I want to sincerely thank you.
