Anselm's second proof

Originally posted by Doward
its a valid definition, prove it false

How do you prove or disprove a definition? You don't. It's just a label. "I define the square root of -1 to be i."

Originally posted by Soothfast
How do you prove or disprove a definition? You don't. It's just a label. "I define the square root of -1 to be i."

If the definition leads to contradiction then the definition is by definition invalid.

Originally posted by Doward
God is perfection.

If God is perfection then how can there be imperfection is his Creation?

Originally posted by DeepThought
If the definition leads to contradiction then the definition is by definition invalid.

Yes…well…

…well, yes. I'll buy that. I'll buy two.

Originally posted by DeepThought
If God is perfection then how can there be imperfection is his Creation?

If God is perfection then how can there be imperfection is his Creation?

That's a good question. But one thing seems clear from the Bible's linear progression on this. Imperfection will not be eternal. There is a timetable in which that which falls short of God's perfection is terminated.

While starting with Genesis chapter 3 we do notice something going wrong with God's "very good" creation, all of it is vanquished by the end of history seen in the last two chapters of Revelation the last book of the Bible.

It must have something to do with creations endowed with the ability to choose to have nothing to do with God. It has to be.

Originally posted by DeepThought
If God is perfection then how can there be imperfection is his Creation?

what is imperfect in creation (and you must prove that it is imperfect)? and the definition did not include creator. if God is the first efficient cause of creation then all subsequent causes would be less perfect (2nd law of thermo dynamic), but we are not there yet, first one must discredit God as perfection.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yes, its a valid definition. No, it isn't the definition of the God he believes in.
And I never said I would prove it false (definitions are by definition, neither true nor false). I said I could possibly prove that an entity matching the given definition did not exist.

how do you know what God I believe in? I believe in the God of perfection. Now proceed sir.

Originally posted by Doward
what is imperfect in creation (and you must prove that it is imperfect)? and the definition did not include creator. if God is the first efficient cause of creation then all subsequent causes would be less perfect (2nd law of thermo dynamic), but we are not there yet, first one must discredit God as perfection.

I don't agree that the second law of thermodynamics applies to 'perfection'. It measures the level of disorder of a non-equilibrium system increases. The highest entropy state for a given volume of space is a black hole, which is perfection of sort. It also measures the amount of information in a system. If God is omniscient, anything else would fall short of perfection, then he has all information possible and so is in the highest possible state of Entropy.

I just thought I'd have a pop at your definition of God as it is the same as Plato's. Plato's God couldn't think about anything but himself as to so would be to have imperfect thoughts which would contradict his perfection. So that God was just engaged in total self-absorption. Worse 'he' brought about the universe (which in Plato's mind was imperfect) by accident, it couldn't help but come into existence as a side effect of the presence of this perfect entity. The perfect God of course was unable to notice as to be aware of imperfection would make him imperfect.

So I need you to explain what you mean by perfect so that a moderately interventionist, or at least caring God is possible - I assume you are not advocating Plato's construction.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

Crikey ... I actually find the post I'm referring to here offensive, genuinely offensive 😞

Originally posted by DeepThought
I don't agree that the second law of thermodynamics applies to 'perfection'. It measures the level of disorder of a non-equilibrium system increases. The highest entropy state for a given volume of space is a black hole, which is perfection of sort. It also measures the amount of information in a system. If God is omniscient, anything else would fall ...[text shortened]... nist, or at least caring God is possible - I assume you are not advocating Plato's construction.

so for you to have a go at my definition you need me to alter my definition? That doesn't seem to be a very honest approach.

Originally posted by Agerg
Crikey ... I actually find the post I'm referring to here offensive, genuinely offensive 😞

you'll get over it.

Originally posted by Doward
how do you know what God I believe in? I believe in the God of perfection. Now proceed sir.

I made a perfect cup of coffee this morning. I didn't realize till now that it was your God. I drank it, so your God no longer exists. QED.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I made a perfect cup of coffee this morning. I didn't realize till now that it was your God. I drank it, so your God no longer exists. QED.

or...you drank God and never realized it. The theologies of Meister Eckhart would affirm that God exists within your coffee, and within you, whether you recognize it or not.

Originally posted by Doward
or...you drank God and never realized it. The theologies of Meister Eckhart would affirm that God exists within your coffee, and within you, whether you recognize it or not.

Still, its not a perfect cup of coffee any more. So God is dead.

If you disagree, then try and prove me wrong, but in doing so you will have to prove a negative.