24 Feb 09
Originally posted by jaywill[Coffe'd up, I shall continue]
The writing could be abused to press some agenda. You can't blame that on John. Actually, any attempt to press your theory I could show would be self contradictory. Why would scoundrels write a book in which the final judgment of all men is so entirely inevitable that no one can hide or escape or get away with ANYTHING ?
Once the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the Seven Seal and the whores of Babylon, along with a false and facile division of the world into good and evil, had been given equal footing in the New Testament with the inherently uncontrollobly straight forward Sermon on the Mount, it was hardly surprising that the Christian language had been undermined to the point where it is as malleable as any old moon cult. In fact, more malleable. Pagan cults were often difficult for those in power to deform or manipulate because they combined strict public ritual with a narrow set of ironclad rules. Paul and his Epistles are often blamed for Christianity's strange tangents. But his contributions were merely early Church politics and policy.
John's Revelations altered the nature of the Christian ethic. It blew the Christian message so wide open that any extreme action, good or evil, could be justified - self-sacrifice, martyrdom, purity, devotion and concern for others had no greater purchase in Christ's 'official Testament' than did racism, violence or absolutism of any sort. whoever wrote John's text was consciously or unconsciously in the service of organized authority.
Thousands of technocratic theologians, burdened with allegience to their various corporate masters, would later contribute to the capture, binding, and disarming of the orginal Christian language that originated from Christ himself; Saint Augustine first among them. Perhaps the most effective method they found was the maintenance of the Bible in Latin, so that the original simple oral message of Christ could only be received in the form of an authorized and controllable interpretation by a priest - who himself was more like than not under the deliberately cultivated mistaken impresion that the John of Revelations was the same John as John the Disciple. Even so, the real victory of official obscurantist complexity over simple free language was long over with the inclusion of the Book of Revelations in the New Testament, a victory that had taken less than four hundred years from when Christ had preached.
This is why I urge you to take a look at who wrote it. When they wrote it. Why they wrote it. And what has been done with it. The Book Of Revelation is the ultimate betrayal of Jesus and the ultimate empowerment of intelligent, manipulative people involved in what Jesus himself called "evil reasonings".
24 Feb 09
Originally posted by jaywillInteresting to see you chose to respond to my harmless retort rather than my long post addressing the travesty of the Book of Revelation head on. What's going on?
Nice evasion. Now, will your next post address the challenge of showing "betrayals" in chapter one of Revelation?
Let's see.
24 Feb 09
3 edits
Originally posted by FMF=====================================
The few simple words that Jesus uttered seemed to have a universal and inherently uncontrollable strength such that their influence grew despite the obscurity of his life and death. They survived the interpretations of the unknown scribes that produced the texts which were gathered together as the Gospels. Christ's language witnessed reality in such a way credulous Christian imagination.
[Cup of coffee time. I'm not done. Bear with me.]
The few simple words that Jesus uttered seemed to have a universal and inherently uncontrollable strength such that their influence grew despite the obscurity of his life and death.
======================================
Well for starters your setting yourself up to push your opinion that anything you want to read is a "betrayal". Because you say His life and death are shrouded in "obscurity" then we have to take your dubios word for it that you are know Christ's true teaching such that you can point out "betrayals of it.
I notice that you mentioned life and death but not resurrection. Let me guess. The teaching of His resurrection in Revelation is a "betrayal" of His teachings ??
There are 20 verses in Revelation chapter one. I'll look for your example/s of the "betrayal" of Christ's teaching therein.
24 Feb 09
Originally posted by jaywillYou are surely not going to deny that Jesus was a relatively obscure figure when he died?
Because you say His life and death are shrouded in "obscurity" then we have to take your dubios word for it that you are know his true teaching is such that you can point out "betrayals of it.
24 Feb 09
What FMF is about to do is put forth the "few words" of Jesus which he likes, dismiss the rest as rooted in "obscurity" and push what he doesn't like in Revelation as a "betrayal".
Nothing much new onder the sun.
What fits his taste are the "few" genuine words of Jesus. What rubs his fur the wrong way are the "betrayals".
Watch him.
24 Feb 09
Originally posted by jaywillWhat I said was that the few simple words that Jesus uttered seemed to have a universal and inherently uncontrollable strength and coherence - e.g. the Sermon on the Mount - such that their influence grew astonishingly as they were spread across the 'world' even despite his own relative obscurity at the time of his life and death.
What FMF is about to do is put forth the "few words" of Jesus which he likes, dismiss the rest as rooted in "obscurity" and push what he doesn't like in Revelation as a "betrayal".
Please do not make a mockery of all the typing I have just done - addressed to you - by deliberately misrepresenting the very straight forward words I have written.
24 Feb 09
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillThe whole thing, jaywill. The entire Book. Didn't you understand my two posts? Why would I go through it verse by verse? The whole thing was clearly written by charlatans, for charlatans' purposes, and added to the New Testament almost 400 years after Christ died. What each verse says is immaterial. The "John" who wrote it presents the most risible 'credentials' for doing so in the first few verses. The Book in its entirety - the way it undermines the simple language and straight forward empowering messages that Christ himself delivered, while on earth, documented in all four Gospels, with a ridiculous wishlist fulfilment for False Preachers the world over - is an utter travesty and an affront to any contemplative and responsible Christian thinker.
There are 20 verses in Revelation chapter one. I'll look for your examples of the "betrayal" of Christ's teaching therein.
There is no verse by verse nonsense on this one jaywill. Only a fool would sift forensically through the written product of "evil reasonings", which is what this cynical imposter of a book is.
Are you going to offer a rebuttal?
24 Feb 09
1 edit
ok now you are descending into pure fantasy, perhaps you care to provide some internal evidence for your ludicrous claims, that we may examine 'the evidence', for if you don't, we will of necessity assume that your assertions are baseless, and before too long you will be toast, so make with the readies FMF
24 Feb 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieDoesn't look like you're going to be contributing anything worthwhile to this discussion if this post is anything to go by. I mean, what in heaven's name is "internal evidence"?
ok now you are descending into pure fantasy, perhaps you care to provide some internal evidence for your ludicrous claims, that we may examine 'the evidence', for if you don't, we will of necessity assume that you assertions are baseless, and before too long you will be toast, so make with the readies FMF
24 Feb 09
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFare you also able to tell the future? internal evidence, what the verses actually state? you have made the assertion that it was written by charlatans with the sole purpose of manipulation, which verses were used for this purpose, its a very simple request and surely not something beyond your sublime intelligence! Imagine going to a court of Law and the procurator fiscal stands and makes the assertion that FMF is a charlatan, the defense ask to present evidence, can we cross examine the witness, no, however you may draw assertions from social and background reports the fiscal replies, is that just? thus you have made the assertion that it was utilized specifically with the intent to manipulate, so make with the readies FMF, which verses were used and for what purpose.
Doesn't look like you're going to be contributing anything worthwhile to this discussion if this post is anything to go by. I mean, what in heaven's name is "internal evidence"?
24 Feb 09
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe stuff about the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the Seven Seals and the Whores of Babylon is not by the same author as the Sermon on the Mount, clearly. It's like a different religion. The former is self-evidently something dreamt up by bureaucrats in need of tools to consolidate their wordly power. The latter was produced by Jesus, and witnessed and documented by many. By about 400 AD the organized Church had surplanted and distorted the teachings of Christ and the beliefs that those teachings gave life to. The key weapon in this coup d'etat and betrayal was the Book of Revelations. There is not a shred of evidence that The Book of Revelations is divinely inspired, and tons of evidence that its existence was necessitated by 4th and 5th Century ecclesiastical politics. Meanwhile, there is little serious doubt about what Jesus actually said, and it is recorded in numerous eye witness accounts, the Gospels, four of which get the official nod. Unfortunately for Corporate Christendom and its carefully manipulated founding literature, Jesus's language and message was so clear and personally empowering that no organized power could control his meaning or profit from it. So... Hey presto! We get the Book of Revelations. '"John" has had a dream, and the stuff he's coming out with is going to be really handy...'
are you also able to tell the future? internal evidence, what the verses actually state? you have made the assertion that it was written by charlatans with the sole purpose of manipulation, which verses were used for this purpose, its a very simple request and surely not something beyond your sublime intelligence! Imagine going to a court of Law an ...[text shortened]... intent to manipulate, so make with the readies FMF, which verses were used and for what purpose.
The whole thing is pretty obvious, really. I have used it for years to gauge who has been got hook line and sinker, and who has retained some vestige of critical faculties. The Book is a fraud. Going line by line is a fool's errand, so I'll leave that to you and jaywill.
24 Feb 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieVery funny. Far from it.
Nothing but a kind of nasty sniping so far FMF. Is that it? Is your attempted poisoning of the well all we have to sip as we wait?
Indeed, I have dished up 5 or 6 substantial, carefully argued posts in the last couple of pages of this Thread.
jaywill has gone silent. And you are reduced to stuff like the above.
24 Feb 09
2 edits
Originally posted by FMFoh my friend these are quite baseless assertions, there is much evidence that the book is not only inspired, but it contains some of the most beautiful passages in the biblical cannon, the very first prophecy uttered in scripture finds its fulfillment in the book of revelation, we are given insight into the beautiful future that waits mankind, a future of unity and healing, of justice and fraternity, we gain valuable insight into the internal problems that were facing the brothers in the first century and the necessary personal and ecclesiastic adjustments that were needed, do not let great learning drive you mad with indignation, nor condescension rob you of the joy of discovering its secrets. BTW its, 'whore', of Babylon as in singular - come with robbie and jaywill on a journey of discovery and behold the visions of eternity
The stuff about the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the Seven Seals and the Whores of Babylon is not by the same author as the Sermon on the Mount, clearly. It's like a different religion. The former is self-evidently something dreamt up by bureaucrats in need of tools to consolidate their wordly power. The latter was produced by Jesus, and witnessed and docume a fraud. Going line by line is a fool's errand, so I'll leave that to you and jaywill.