05 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayAtheism isn't a belief system, is all. Jaywill brings up dogma. There are no dogmas in
What makes one belief system a religion and the other not, just
a deity?
Kelly
atheism. If you consider disbelief in a deity a dogma, then so is the disbelief in unicorns or
leprechauns a dogma. Consequently, those who believe in unicorns would have a ground to
demand that the government place unicorns in courtrooms as well as the Ten Commandments.
Unlike religion, atheism takes no specific stances on moral conduct (e.g., there are pro-choice
and pro-life atheists). Atheism does not require specific ritualistic behaviors (must go to Starbucks
every Saturday night?).
That is, beyond a singular disbelief, there are no uniting beliefs or practices among atheists.
This is distinct from every other religion.
Nemesio
05 Feb 08
Originally posted by rwingettRwingett, I fully admit that I'm just too innocent to have believed this. I disagree with the idea
This is nothing new. It has long been one of the principle tactics of theists for many years. They constantly assert that atheism is a belief, and therefore is a religion, and therefore should be shackled with all the restrictions that are placed upon religion. Or conversely, theism should be granted all the privileges of the so-called secular religion. At ...[text shortened]... ict atheism as a belief then the burden of proof becomes equally distributed between both camps.
that atheism isn't a belief (that is, to disbelieve A is also to believe ~A), but it's silly to refer
to a belief as a religion.
Further, nothing could be more perverted than to try to use the First Amendment as a
justification for State-sponsored religious endorsement. As a theist, I find it insulting that the
government would endorse my religious practice, for in doing so, it would exclude the religious
practices for which our forebears died. The government should have no religious face such that
I have the freedom to conduct my religious affairs unfettered and unaffected.
Nemesio
05 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioI beg to differ there isn't a central "book" or "scroll" for atheism yet
Atheism isn't a belief system, is all. Jaywill brings up dogma. There are no dogmas in
atheism. If you consider disbelief in a deity a dogma, then so is the disbelief in unicorns or
leprechauns a dogma. Consequently, those who believe in unicorns would have a ground to
demand that the government place unicorns in courtrooms as well as the Ten Command ...[text shortened]... beliefs or practices among atheists.
This is distinct from every other religion.
Nemesio
they share humanistic views of the universe nonetheless. The lack of
central location for doctrine doesn’t mean that common beliefs are
not shared, and even the notion that there has be a common belief
system for everyone in it to be a ‘religion’ isn’t valid in my opinion, we
each walk out our own faith no matter what it is. There are theist who
believe in abortion, and what they allow for with morals, they can be in
total disagreement with each other, not to mention various and
sundry different ritualistic behaviors among theist as well. Among
those that are monotheistic not all of them share common thoughts
on all subjects, among those that have a polytheistic view of gods
they don’t all share every thought and belief either, why would we say
atheistic views need to be united for it to be considered a religion?
Kelly
05 Feb 08
Originally posted by NemesioSay a government came out and said it was pro-Santa Claus. How credible would it be? I see no difference between Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or gods.
When I though I had seen it all.......
Call me naïve, but I didn't see this coming: Despite Rwingett's protestations to the contrary, there
is a growing movement to label Atheism/Secularism as a 'religion.' Consequently, the separation
of Church and State represents a violation of First Amendment's guarantee to a freedom of
religion; that is, when th ...[text shortened]... t to hear justification for it here. So, hit me
with it: I'm now prepared.
Nemesio
These religious morons get WAY too much respect for their ancient beliefs, their idiotic worshipping and their murderous ways.
05 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayWhat non-theistic views do atheists share?
I beg to differ there isn't a central "book" or "scroll" for atheism yet
they share humanistic views of the universe nonetheless. The lack of
central location for doctrine doesn’t mean that common beliefs are
not shared, and even the notion that there has be a common belief
system for everyone in it to be a ‘religion’ isn’t valid in my opinion, we
each ...[text shortened]... would we say
atheistic views need to be united for it to be considered a religion?
Kelly
05 Feb 08
Originally posted by NemesioThe main one as you have already pointed out there isn't any deity
What non-theistic views do atheists share?
so you have deity, deities, or ~deity. All beliefs about everything
else is colored by that point of view from notions within science, to
morals and so on.
Kelly
05 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayWould you say that my belief that you are a man with some children constitutes a religion?
The main one as you have already pointed out there isn't any deity
so you have deity, deities, or ~deity. All beliefs about everything
else is colored by that point of view from notions within science, to
morals and so on.
Would you say that my disbelief that you are a female prostitute constitutes a religion?
Would you say that the many people on RHP who also believe the former and disbelieve the
latter are members of such a religion?
If yes to these, do you think the government ought to endorse them with public funding?
Nemesio
05 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioNo I would not say your beliefs about the examples you gave make
Would you say that my belief that you are a man with some children constitutes a religion?
Would you say that my disbelief that you are a female prostitute constitutes a religion?
Would you say that the many people on RHP who also believe the former and disbelieve the
latter are members of such a religion?
If yes to these, do you think the government ought to endorse them with public funding?
Nemesio
a religion, but that is not the same thing about a belief in God,
gods, or no gods. That choice, will affect everything else you look
at in this universe, which is not the same thing as your views on
men sexual choices.
Kelly
05 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioActually I can't uphold that notion any more. Atheism is a belief system and to talk of holding positions without holding beliefs is pure folly. Rwingett has long held on to such a notion because it makes his argument easier to explicate, but I believe the fact of the matter is that any notional system holds content which requires belief. Justified? I believe so, but belief nonetheless. It is pure double speak to assert that atheism is a lack of belief; a lack of belief carries no weight of propositional content, it lacks propositional content. Atheism very much contains that content and whilst I still believe it to be a solid and non-contradictory position to hold, talk of 'denial of god' and 'non-belief' is apologist nonsense.
Atheism isn't a belief system, is all. Jaywill brings up dogma. There are no dogmas in
atheism. If you consider disbelief in a deity a dogma, then so is the disbelief in unicorns or
leprechauns a dogma. Consequently, those who believe in unicorns would have a ground to
demand that the government place unicorns in courtrooms as well as the Ten Command ...[text shortened]... beliefs or practices among atheists.
This is distinct from every other religion.
Nemesio
Of course none of this makes Atheism a religion, that's just crazy fool talk.
05 Feb 08
Originally posted by StarrmanI will smite you down with my atheist superpowers.
Actually I can't uphold that notion any more. Atheism is a belief system and to talk of holding positions without holding beliefs is pure folly. Rwingett has long held on to such a notion because it makes his argument easier to explicate, but I believe the fact of the matter is that [b]any notional system holds content which requires belief. Justifie ...[text shortened]... nonsense.
Of course none of this makes Atheism a religion, that's just crazy fool talk.[/b]
05 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayThere are many beliefs that affect the way in which I look at the universe. My belief about
That choice, will affect everything else you look at in this universe,
relativity, or evolution, or the role music and the arts play in healthy human development. There
are many aspects about the Divine that play no role in how I look at the universe, such as
whether compassion is a virtue worth pursuing.
It seems to me that you are suggesting that it is impossible for a person to not have a religion.
Am I correct?
Nemesio
06 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayOkay Kelly, if i can't do it through atheism, could you please tell me what I need to do to not be part of any religion? Then, once I have done whatever you think I need to do; could you please give my position a name so we can end this nonsense?
No I would not say your beliefs about the examples you gave make
a religion, but that is not the same thing about a belief in God,
gods, or no gods. That choice, will affect everything else you look
at in this universe, which is not the same thing as your views on
men sexual choices.
Kelly
06 Feb 08
Atheism CANNOT ever be considered a religion. There is nothing religious about it. There is not a concept on earth that is more opposed to religion than atheism.
The only overlapping thing is that religious people have a set view of the world that they try and impose on everyone else on the planet and atheists want nothing to do with it anymore...this is the ONLY place they intersect.
There is no god. There never will be. Let's grow up, move on and play some chess or discuss something worthwhile already.
06 Feb 08
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJaySo, as a fellow member of the aunicornist religion what humanistic views of the universe do you share with me? Do you realize that our aunicornist religion is one of the largest religions in the world, with a much higher membership than some of those other religions that you belong to?
I beg to differ there isn't a central "book" or "scroll" for atheism yet
they share humanistic views of the universe nonetheless. The lack of
central location for doctrine doesn’t mean that common beliefs are
not shared, and even the notion that there has be a common belief
system for everyone in it to be a ‘religion’ isn’t valid in my opinion, we
each ...[text shortened]... would we say
atheistic views need to be united for it to be considered a religion?
Kelly