"atheism is a belief"

Originally posted by googlefudge

"Does a God exist?"
This question has no answer. You can't test, look, reason beyond the natural. This is perhaps the misunderstanding that one of us is having. You might think these two questions are the same and I say they are not.

"This question has no answer."

Actually that question has many answers, a good number of w ...[text shortened]... and rational.
You can't just assert that the question has no answer, you have to prove it.

Logically show that the question, "Does God exist?" has no answer?

I'll go one better. "Does the supernatural or any part of it exist?"

If the supernatural exists then it can't be observed and tested in the natural universe. You can't observe and test what does not obey the laws of nature. So the answer to the question is not in the natural universe. Not supported by natural laws. Within the universe then the set of answers is an empty set.

Is it then in the supernatural? The supernatural is anything we imagine and we can imagine a lot. A never ending set of conflict with no logical way allowed to choose answers. This is an empty set too. If you can't choose an answer from the answer set then there are no answers in the answer set. No logic can choose an answer where logic is not to be used.

Where else is there to look? Anywhere suggested that is not part of the natural universe is part, or becomes part once imagined, of the supernatural.

There is nowhere else to look. There is no answer to be found. Better to spend our time on questions with answers.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I understand what you are saying Kelly, but you are only seeing things though the eyes of a Christian.(Which is almost inescapable). I have however (along with twhitehead and googlefudge) tried to show you how things look through the eyes of an atheist.

Look at it this way, how would you respond if i said to you that as a Christian you reject t ...[text shortened]... r. Well an atheist would answer the same thing when it comes to the absence of your chosen God).

I don't know Kelly's background, but it could be he never was an atheist. No one is born an atheist, because an atheist is someone who makes a conscious decision about his disbelief in a god or gods. So unless or until someone makes that decision he cannot truly be an atheist. I did at one time make that decision, and so I was at one time an atheist. But you should have seen the reaction when I first revealed this here... I got a flood of responses essentially saying "You're lying!" or "You were never an atheist!", so it seems I may have (unintentionally of course) violated some unspoken sanctity of atheist disbelief. But in my defense I can assure you this was not intentional, because I apparently missed that one meeting of the Local Brotherhood of Atheists chapter (of the Universal Brotherhood of Atheists) when all the of 'rules' were laid out and explained. I was on call and working odds hours at the time, and couldn't show up for each and every meeting... so it wasn't my fault!

So anyway... aw dang it, what was my point?

Oh yeah, my point is there are many former Christians here who are now atheists, and who claim to understand what Christianity is all about because they are former Christians. By the same token, if I'm a former atheist who is now a Christian can I also claim to have some special insight into the mind of an atheist?

Originally posted by lemon lime

...I was at one time an atheist. But you should have seen the reaction when I first revealed this here... I got a flood of responses essentially saying "You're lying!" or "You were never an atheist!", so it seems I may have (unintentionally of course) violated some unspoken sanctity of atheist disbelief.

Have you got a link to the thread where you claim this happened?

Originally posted by FMF
[b]...I was at one time an atheist. But you should have seen the reaction when I first revealed this here... I got a flood of responses essentially saying "You're lying!" or "You were never an atheist!", so it seems I may have (unintentionally of course) violated some unspoken sanctity of atheist disbelief.

Have you got a link to the thread where you claim this happened?[/b]

No... do you?

I have access to my memory. Do you have access to my memory?

Originally posted by lemon lime
No... do you?

You're making a specific claim which sounds false to me but it ought to be easy for you to substantiate.

Originally posted by FMF
You're making a specific claim which sounds false to me but it ought to be easy for you to substantiate.

Can you explain how finding a needle in a haystack would be easy?
Go look for it yourself, you lazy atheist.

Originally posted by lemon lime
Can you explain how finding a needle in a haystack would be easy?
Go look for it yourself, you lazy atheist.

Why not show us where you think people "essentially" said "You're lying!" or "You were never an atheist!" and then we can see whether your recollection is false or not? I reckon you're making it up. A link to where you say it happened would resolve this.

Originally posted by FMF
Why not show us where you think people "essentially" said "You're lying!" or "You were never an atheist!" and then we can see whether your recollection is false or not? I reckon you're making it up. A link to where you say it happened would resolve this.

I reckon all you really know is what you reckon to know. And I reckon Ghost will be sidetracked by this nonsensical fluff you're throwing up here as easily as I can be sidetracked by it. By the way, if I was still an atheist I doubt you would be so quick to calling me a liar, so thanks for substantiating my recollection... I know it wasn't intentional but what the hey, I'll take it! 😀

Originally posted by lemon lime
I reckon all you really know is what you reckon to know. And I reckon Ghost will be sidetracked by this nonsensical fluff you're throwing up here as easily as I can be sidetracked by it. By the way, if I was still an atheist I doubt you would be so quick to calling me a liar, so thanks for substantiating my recollection... I know it wasn't intentional but what the hey, I'll take it! 😀

Your claim that people said "You're lying!" or "You were never an atheist!" when you revealed that you were an atheist here on this forum is not "nonsensical fluff", it was one of the main points of your post.

Originally posted by FMF
Your claim that people said "You're lying!" or "You were never an atheist!" when you revealed that you were an atheist here on this forum is not "nonsensical fluff", it was one of the main points of your post.

...it was one of the main points of your post.

No, it wasn't a main point at all. It just happened to be something you wanted to center your attention on, but I'm still not distracted and my attention has not yet been deflected away from the main point(s). But maybe you're not trying hard enough... try it again, and this time put some real thought into it. Otherwise you'll come off looking like a silly little troll... again.

Originally posted by lemon lime
No, it wasn't a main point at all. It just happened to be something you wanted to center your attention on, but I'm still not distracted and my attention has not yet been deflected away from the main point(s). But maybe you're not trying hard enough... try it again, and this time put some real thought into it. Otherwise you'll come off looking like a silly little troll... again.

I take you at your word when you say that you were an atheist. I'm pretty sure everybody here does. And yet you say more than one person here called you a liar ~ you called it a "flood of responses" saying this ~ when you revealed that you used to be an atheist. This claim of yours does not ring true to me but I am willing to be corrected. Which posters said "You were never an atheist"? Which thread do you say it happened on?

Originally posted by lemon lime
No, it wasn't a main point at all.

This is what you said:

I don't know Kelly's background, but it could be he never was an atheist. No one is born an atheist, because an atheist is someone who makes a conscious decision about his disbelief in a god or gods. So unless or until someone makes that decision he cannot truly be an atheist. I did at one time make that decision, and so I was at one time an atheist. But you should have seen the reaction when I first revealed this here... I got a flood of responses essentially saying "You're lying!" or "You were never an atheist!", so it seems I may have (unintentionally of course) violated some unspoken sanctity of atheist disbelief. But in my defense I can assure you this was not intentional, because I apparently missed that one meeting of the Local Brotherhood of Atheists chapter (of the Universal Brotherhood of Atheists) when all the of 'rules' were laid out and explained. I was on call and working odds hours at the time, and couldn't show up for each and every meeting... so it wasn't my fault!

It took up almost the entire text of your post. How could it possibly not have been one of your main points?

Originally posted by lemon lime
No one is born an atheist, because an atheist is someone who makes a conscious decision about his disbelief in a god or gods.

No, this is not true. [as you well know]

An atheist is any person who is not a theist.

A theist is someone who holds a belief [a firm conviction] that a god or gods exist.

Babies are both people, and lack a belief in a god or gods existence. Therefore they are atheists.

So is anyone who [for whatever reason] have never encountered the concept of gods and thus lacks
a belief in them.

rwingett's term of "implicit atheist" works quite nicely if you want to distinguish what type of atheist
these people are.

Originally posted by lemon lime
I don't know Kelly's background, but it could be he never was an atheist. No one is born an atheist, because an atheist is someone who makes a conscious decision about his disbelief in a god or gods. So unless or until someone makes that decision he cannot truly be an atheist. I did at one time make that decision, and so I was at one time an atheist. But ...[text shortened]... ho is now a Christian can I also claim to have some special insight into the mind of an atheist?

Oh yeah, my point is there are many former Christians here who are now atheists, and who claim to understand what Christianity is all about because they are former Christians. By the same token, if I'm a former atheist who is now a Christian can I also claim to have some special insight into the mind of an atheist?

Atheists are not a monolithic group, apart from lacking a belief in gods we don't all agree on anything else.
We have no united doctrine or scripture or opinions on anything due to being atheists.
Heck, some atheists are Hindu's and Buddhists, and have completely different world-views from [say] me.
In fact it might even be the case that worldwide such atheists outnumber those like me, so even though
I am pretty close to the atheist stereotype [white, male, British, science background, works with computers]
I may not even be a member of the largest group of atheists. Which is why I take a lot of trouble to not sound
like I am speaking for all atheists about anything other than the most general principles.

Given that, there is no typical 'mind of an atheist' for you to have any insight on.

You of course have special insight into what your experience is/was, but probably not into what mine is
[for example].

Originally posted by lemon lime
I don't know Kelly's background, but it could be he never was an atheist. No one is born an atheist, because an atheist is someone who makes a conscious decision about his disbelief in a god or gods. So unless or until someone makes that decision he cannot truly be an atheist. I did at one time make that decision, and so I was at one time an atheist. But ...[text shortened]... ho is now a Christian can I also claim to have some special insight into the mind of an atheist?

Well growing up God was not part of my life, didn't think about Him, didn't
reject or accept Him. He really wasn't a part of my life, I take that mean I was
an Atheist by those things I have read here.

I heard about God, but that was about it. Saw people talking about Him on
TV on Sundays, He came up in on special events, but not part of my life.

So it is funny my opinion on the topic is rejected here by some. I guess
having no opinion on God didn't make me a card carrying Atheist. Unlike
belonging to some faith as Christian where there are realities such as having
a relationship with God in Christ, I'd thought having nothing was all that was
required to be an Atheist since they believe in nothing, and give credit to
nothing for everything. 🙂