"atheism is a belief"

Originally posted by KellyJay

If you are an Atheist, than it is the prism of Atheism that you look at the
world around you, if you looked at the world around as something else,
you would be something else.

I don't think it is your intention Kelly, but you are bordering on being offensive in repeatedly telling atheists what it means to be an atheist and not actually listening to 'atheists.' Do you think we are simply lying or delusional when we take the time to explain to you how it works for us? How would you feel if i told you what it meant to be a Christian and totally ignored your own view on the matter?

Bottom line, my atheism is a tiny insignificant part of who i am as a human being. How could it possibly be a prism for anything?! I am also an Ipswich town supporter (much more passionately as it happens than i am an atheist). Is football therefore a prism to the world around me? Please ponder on that.

*Edit: Your theism is a prism because it 'is' a belief; whereas atheism is a disbelief and doesn't come with any baggage.

Originally posted by C Hess
If I misunderstood you, my apologies, but it seemed you were saying that my atheism makes me look at the world and giving me ideas of how it should be, rather than seeing it as it is.

If you've set in stone your views that the universe is godless that is what you'll see.
I am not talking about how anyone becomes an Atheist, that is meaningless to this.
Is the universe really godless?
Do I see God in the universe, yes.
Is God there?

I don't see why you think what I'm saying is some how bad or wrong, I'm simply saying
that as soon as you make that choice, as soon as you pick that belief, and want to justify
it, you will have blinders on that support the views you have.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I don't think it is your intention Kelly, but you are bordering on being offensive in repeatedly telling atheists what it means to be an atheist and not actually listening to 'atheists.' Do you think we are simply lying or delusional when we take the time to explain to you how it works for us? How would you feel if i told you what it meant to be a Ch ...[text shortened]... n i am an atheist). Is football therefore a prism to the world around me? Please ponder on that.

Look I'm not attempting to insult anyone, we can stop here and agree to disagree.
I have my point of view, and if I keep getting asked to defend it, I typically will.

Originally posted by KellyJay
If you've set in stone your views that the universe is godless that is what you'll see.
I am not talking about how anyone becomes an Atheist, that is meaningless to this.
Is the universe really godless?
Do I see God in the universe, yes.
Is God there?

I don't see why you think what I'm saying is some how bad or wrong, I'm simply saying
that as soon ...[text shortened]... that belief, and want to justify
it, you will have blinders on that support the views you have.

My views has never been set in stone.

Originally posted by C Hess
My views has never been set in stone.

Is the universe godless?

Originally posted by KellyJay

I don't see why you think what I'm saying is some how bad or wrong, I'm simply saying
that as soon as you make that choice, as soon as you pick that belief, and want to justify it, you will have blinders on that support the views you have.

That's just it Kelly. I didn't 'make a choice' and i didn't 'pick a belief' (Because atheism 'isn't' a belief). As has been said already, my Godless existence was my default setting. 'Atheism' is just a convenient label to differentiate us (and i use 'us' very loosely) from theists. I didn't wake up one day and choose to believe in atheism. I have never been anything else but a Godless human.
How can a lack of something that has never been there be of any significance in my life?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
That's just it Kelly. I didn't 'make a choice' and i didn't 'pick a belief' (Because atheism 'isn't' a belief). As has been said already, my Godless existence was my default setting. 'Atheism' is just a convenient label to differentiate us (and i use 'us' very loosely) from theists. I didn't wake up one day any choose to believe in atheism. I have ne ...[text shortened]... else.
How can a lack of something that has never been there be of any significance in my life?

I do not care, this discussion has never been why you are an Atheist!

I have only been talking about seeing a godless universe, because that is your mindset!

If you saw God or god's hands in the universe could you say you were still an Atheist?
I would be willing to bet no, if you did see that you've have to call yourself a Theist.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I do not care, this discussion has never been why you are an Atheist!

I have only been talking about seeing a godless universe, because that is your mindset!

If you saw God or god's hands in the universe could you say you were still an Atheist?
I would be willing to bet no, if you did see that you've have to call yourself a Theist.

Yes, a godless universe is my mindset, as it has always been.(But this is very different from saying my disbelief in God is a prism in my life). I have also already said in the past that i would have to experience God 'directly' if i was ever to accept his existence.

I would ask you in return though; if you saw Vishnu's hand in the universe could you say you were still a Christian?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
That's just it Kelly. I didn't 'make a choice' and i didn't 'pick a belief' (Because atheism 'isn't' a belief). As has been said already, my Godless existence was my default setting. 'Atheism' is just a convenient label to differentiate us (and i use 'us' very loosely) from theists. I didn't wake up one day and choose to believe in atheism. I have ne ...[text shortened]... uman.
How can a lack of something that has never been there be of any significance in my life?

I will continue this conversation only if you realize I'm not trying to insult you, and I am
honestly not trying too. I have an opinion and it still is different than yours, and a few others
here.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Yes, a godless universe is my mindset, as it has always been.(But this is very different from saying my disbelief in God is a prism in my life). I have also already said in the past that i would have to experience God 'directly' if i was ever to accept his existence.

I would ask you in return though; if you saw Vishnu's hand in the universe could you say you were still a Christian?

I agree with you, you should experience God directly, I most certainly cannot show Him to
you. God is the only one that can do that, if I talk you into it, someone including you can talk
you out of it.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I will continue this conversation only if you realize I'm not trying to insult you, and I am
honestly not trying too. I have an opinion and it still is different than yours, and a few others
here.

Yes, i accept that, and i can not blame you for having an opinion different from my own. I guess my frustration comes from you not seeming to want to listen to what an atheist has to say about their atheism. As a theist you can only hypothesize about what it means to live without God, but a 'non-believer' can tell you from first hand experience about a Godless reality. Why wouldn't you want to take that on board? Surely a speculative opinion has to give way to direct experience.

I think these forums are a great place for understanding, and that if you truly want to understand what it means to be a fish, start listening to the Halibut. 🙂

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Yes, i accept that, and i can not blame you for having an opinion different from my own. I guess my frustration comes from you not seeming to want to listen to what an atheist has to say about their atheism. As a theist you can only hypothesize about what it means to live without God, but a 'non-believer' can tell you from first hand experience about ...[text shortened]... if you truly want to understand what it means to be a fish, start listening to the Halibut. 🙂

I get the frustration, you should be on the receiving in of being a Christian here with the
your stupid, you believe in fairy tales....and so on.

What I keep attempting to get you to see that the universe looks different with and without
God in it. You can call yourself a Zipkok instead of an Atheist, it would not matter to me
what you call yourself. The very fact that the universe in your vision is godless, has the
universe as godless. To me that seems straight forward, not sure why I'm getting push
back on that point.

A godless universe is void of so much, so you don't have a deity to believe in, no biggie!
A positive thing within the universe to believe in is different than having nothing, but
having nothing still has an effect on the meaning in the universe.

Without God there could be no plan, purpose, or design for the universe to be found, to
acknowledge it would be to be see some thing more than nothing. So it will not be there
or your whole world view becomes altered to it very foundations.

I did not become a Christian until I was 25 years old, and I've lived longer than that now
as a Christian. I know first hand what not having God in my life means, and what He
makes everything looks like, and I have seen the difference God makes. I did not grow
up in a loving Christian family, my early memories I have more of my dad bouncing my
mom off the walls while he drank and they fought then I do them showing that they cared
for one another. So growing up without a doubt I grasped not having God in my life,
trust me when I say it is better with Him.

Nothing that happens to any of us in the life isn't common to us all, with God we buried
our first child and He brought us through that. The universe is the same for both in what
can happen to us, what can happen to those we love. One carries meaning beyond just
the living and dying parts, the other there is just living and dying get it while you can
because it will all soon be gone.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
What if there were someone (and quite possibly there is,) who shares your beliefs
on absolutely everything except on the existence of a god.

In other words the exact same morality as yourself, same opinions, same judgements,
even the same tastes and preferences. But does not believe a god exists.

How would you describe their world view?

KellyJay

any answer?

Originally posted by KellyJay

A godless universe is void of so much, so you don't have a deity to believe in, no biggie!

A godless universe is just void of a god.

Simple.

Everything, EVERYTHING, else you believe is still believable without a god.

Originally posted by KellyJay
If you've set in stone your views that the universe is godless that is what you'll see.
I am not talking about how anyone becomes an Atheist, that is meaningless to this.
Is the universe really godless?
Do I see God in the universe, yes.
Is God there?

I don't see why you think what I'm saying is some how bad or wrong, I'm simply saying
that as soon ...[text shortened]... that belief, and want to justify
it, you will have blinders on that support the views you have.

If you've set in stone your views that the universe is godless that is what you'll see.

Yes but we HAVEN'T set our views in stone. THAT IS MY POINT!

Given that this is wrong, your entire argument falls apart.

I am an atheist because I see no evidence for the existence of any gods.

If I found evidence sufficient to justify believing in gods I WOULD CHANGE MY MIND.

That's the very definition of NOT having your beliefs set in stone.

I am not talking about how anyone becomes an Atheist, that is meaningless to this.

No it's not meaningless, it central to the entire debate as we have explained repeatedly, try listening for once.

I don't see why you think what I'm saying is some how bad or wrong, I'm simply saying
that as soon as you make that choice, as soon as you pick that belief, and want to justify
it, you will have blinders on that support the views you have.

NO! this is wrong.

I have a commitment to holding as few wrong 'facts' about the universe and as many 'true' facts about the universe
as possible.

The way I go about this is by using the best tools [scientific method] we have developed, and by following the work
of others using those methods [the summed total of scientific knowledge].
This method is not perfect, but it's proven better than any other known or proposed.
Should a different method ever prove better, I will switch to it.

This is important because the thing I care about, the thing that drives my decisions [in this area] is not affiliation
or drive to be "an atheist". But a drive to be right, to know the truth.

THAT is the lens through which I view the universe NOT one very minor conclusion I/we have drawn from it.

By insisting that you know what drives my/our beliefs and worldview better than I/we do ourselves you both make
yourself look stupid, and you most definitely insult us.

Stop telling us what and how we think and instead ASK and LISTEN.