Originally posted by no1marauderBut do you think the concept of eternity is rational?
KM: The question of how can something come out of absolutely nothing with no cause (rather than just carry on being nothing) is a paradox that defies rational explanation.
It's been pointed out many times on this forum, that this "paradox" is not resolved by kicking the can down the road from the universe to "God".
Originally posted by Halitose"Cause" in what sense? Like this:
Yes. As I said: solution[b]s. The problem with an eternal universe is that it needs some cause for its bangingness. 😏[/b]
The Great Tao flows everywhere,
to the Left and to the Right,
All Things depend on it to Exist,
And it does Not Abandon Them,
To its Accomplishments It Lays No Claim,
It Loves and Nourishes All Things,
But Does Not Lord it Over Them.
T'ung-shan Ling-Chieh
Originally posted by no1marauderIMO, the problem of evil is even more acute within pantheism. Of course evil is only an illusion -- the fettering of the mind.
"Cause" in what sense? Like this:
The Great Tao flows everywhere,
to the Left and to the Right,
All Things depend on it to Exist,
And it does Not Abandon Them,
To its Accomplishments It Lays No Claim,
It Loves and Nourishes All Things,
But Does Not Lord it Over Them.
T'ung-shan Ling-Chieh
Originally posted by HalitoseI don't think so. As I understand it, most Pantheistics (is that a word?) don't believe in omniscience and without that belief the whole "Argument from evil" doesn't apply.
IMO, the problem of evil is even more acute within pantheism. Of course evil is only an illusion -- the fettering of the mind.
Originally posted by no1marauderYes, but (correct me if I'm wrong) don't they believe all matter to be god? If they concede to an action of evil, then god is partly evil.
I don't think so. As I understand it, most Pantheistics (is that a word?) don't believe in omniscience and without that belief the whole "Argument from evil" doesn't apply.
Originally posted by HalitoseWhy do you think this? The Problem of Evil requires a single omnipotent being whose actions cannot be challenged by another equivalent power. It also requires that being to be perfectly good.
IMO, the problem of evil is even more acute within pantheism. Of course evil is only an illusion -- the fettering of the mind.
Originally posted by HalitosePart of "God", I suppose. That's not a problem if you don't believe in A) the concept of evil; or B) that "God" is omnibenevolent.
Yes, but (correct me if I'm wrong) don't they believe all matter to be god? If they concede to an action of evil, then god is partly evil.
Originally posted by HalitoseThere is a distance between the nucleus and the area of greatest electron density within the first quantum shell; but there is electron density everywhere in the universe from every atom, actually. It's just very low far from the atom or very, very close to the nucleus. It's one of those things about quantum physics thats hard to wrap your brain around. The idea that the atom is mostly empty space requires us to think of electrons as point masses, which they are not...I don't think...it's very confusing. Here's some more info on it:
I can't remember the exact proportions, but isn't there a relatively huge gap between the nucleus and the electrons?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_orbital
Let me try to clarify. I'll restate the bare bones of the AFE (though I can't do it as well as bbarr obviously) and point out why it doesn't apply to a pantheistic "God":
The AFE takes as premises that there is an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good God that creates the universe and exists apart from and separate from it. It then observes that very bad things happen to beings who live in the universe. God knows that these bad things are going to happen and could prevent them, but he chooses not to. Thus, he can't have all three attributes.
A pantheistic "God" isn't any of the three except possibly all-good. He IS the universe and does not exist separately from it. Whenever bad things happen to anything in the universe, they are, in effect, happening to him also. Unlike the theist God, the pantheistic "God" is in some respects in the boat with us, because we are him. "God" doesn't know what is going to happen and can't prevent it from happening. This universe's existence is something he is experiencing as well as we are.
Originally posted by no1marauderOh...I thought we were talking about polytheism.
Let me try to clarify. I'll restate the bare bones of the AFE (though I can't do it as well as bbarr obviously) and point out why it doesn't apply to a pantheistic "God":
The AFE takes as premises that there is an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good God that creates the universe and exists apart from and separate from it. It then observes that ...[text shortened]... ng. This universe's existence is something he is experiencing as well as we are.
Pantheism is a metaphysical and religious position. Broadly defined it is the view that (1) "God is everything and everything is God … the world is either identical with God or in some way a self-expression of his nature" (Owen 1971: 74). Similarly, it is the view that (2) everything that exists constitutes a "unity" and this all-inclusive unity is in some sense divine (MacIntyre 1967: 34). A slightly more specific definition is given by Owen (1971: 65) who says (3) "‘Pantheism’ … signifies the belief that every existing entity is, only one Being; and that all other forms of reality are either modes (or appearances) of it or identical with it."
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pantheism/