Originally posted by chancremechanicYou are so wrong. I could say the same thing about you. You have been brought-up in god-fearing US. You have had your ideas inprinted in you from childhood and you are unable to break free from your religious chackles. This sort of quarrel won't lead to anything meaningful though.
You are from God-less Sweden. There really is nothing to debate. You were brought up in secular institutions with secular government policies. You cannot see the reality of a living God unless you committed yourself in doing so, but that would be going against years of ingrained atheism packed into your head by a secular government and people. Am I right/wrong?
Yes, Sweden is a secular state. If I'm not mistaking, so is US. Secular state means to not allow a church or religion govern the political decisions (at least not openly). That's a good thing. That means we have freedom of religion. That means we can think and choose for ourselves. I have. Have you?
I don't think this discussion is meaningless just because you probably won't be able to change my believes and I won't be able to change yours. If we look at history, only discussions on a civil plane will lead to progress. Rejection of new ideas and changes will always lead to extinction. It doesn't matter what culture you're from, this phenomenon can be observerved throughout history. Nature's changing (whether through the will of a God or not), animals are adapting and we all need to accept that maybe, just maybe, our ancestors were wrong on some points. Is that so hard to accept?
I'm sure that in the Roman days, people believed full-heartadly that there were actually several Gods and that when the emperor died he would become a semi-god. We cannot say if that was true or not. We can only choose what we believe in and I think that to limit oneself to a narrow point of view is to not allow for freedom of thought. Spirituality is important, but it comes in many different forms. Not accepting a God, is not the same as being less spiritual. Think about that.
24 Nov 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressI agree that's a somewhat limited analogy. You probably meant to say that if everything began without a thought, without intelligence, than we can not have been created with intelligence and the world around us could not have been such a wonderful place for us to live in, with mysteries and beauty beyond our comprehension.
A pattern of broken bricks is not exactly something meaningful. It takes far more faith to believe that random events brought us into creation.
I disagree. I think the reason we find the world around us such a marvelous place is because we're part of it. We have been gradually designed through evolutionary events to perfectly (more or less) fit in with the world at large (I hope we're still evolving). That doesn't mean that there's an intelligent being responsible for creating us. Though I'm not saying there isn't, because that would presumptious of me.
I often get the question about what was before the Big Bang. I can't answer that. I can't even be sure there was a Big Bang. But just like I can't answer that, certainly you can't answer what was before God. How did he spring into existence? These are questions we cannot even begin to answer because they're far beyond our mental and spiritual abilities to comprehend.
If you think of time as a circle and God was always there, then it is equally possible that God was never there. The circle then. Time. How did that happen? Interesting questions who's answers we can only speculate about. Don't say there is no meaning in a random chain of events. They may only be random to us, but in the bigger view very logical steps from one state to another.
Originally posted by KellyJayJust because I live my life so that I can satisfy my needs in life (always without hurting others, that's the key) doesn't make it shallow and meaningless. In fact, it allows me to expand my spirituality beyond what you may think possible. My love for other living beings is a complete reality to me. I don't need a religion to tell me I should respect others or treat others as I would have them treat me. That's common sense if you think about it. It's part of the social laws that must exist for anything greater than a loose bunch of hunters to live together in a society. Religion has nothing to do with the way we should treat each other. Often religions are abused in the name of hard political decisions. "We must invade that country. But not to get their wealth or access to a stratigically benefitial position, but to help the people get closer to God".
I believe God is Love, I believe God gives us rain, sunshine, causes
our plants to grow, blesses us in thousands of ways, more times than
not without thanks by us. I believe God deals in reality much more
than we do, we work out our faith in the universe, no matter if what we
believe is true or not. Even if we know the truth sometimes we will act
as ou ...[text shortened]... ut I'm sorry
to say, another reason we need God within us, changing us to be
like Him.
Kelly
Religion should be only about what's inside of us and about what is the cause of all things. To understand ourselves and our place in the world is to understand and being able to help others. Not to conquer worlds and to tell others what to believe. That's my opinon at least. And we can only do these things on our own. We can seek wisdom and advice from others, but we must each decide for ourselves what we believe is the truth about the supernatural realities we think we can perceive.
And, I do believe that enjoying life to the fullest, being satisfied with life gives you the strength and power to endure the hardships (which undoubtedly hits as all at one time or another).
25 Nov 05
2 edits
Originally posted by chancremechanicWhy do you say this? I was brought up godless, I wasn't in a godless
You are from God-less Sweden. There really is nothing to debate. You were brought up in secular institutions with secular government policies. You cannot see the reality of a living God unless you committed yourself in doing so, but that would be going against years of ingrained atheism packed into your head by a secular government and people. Am I right/wrong?
state spewing godless teaching...oh wait...separation of church state,
I guess I was. God can reach anyone, anywhere, if it is simply looking
at teaching and accepting it, God is nothing but a well thought out
discussion piece. If God is real, than the world and all the power of
darkness will not be able to stop God and man from getting together
if the man is real with God. God's hand isn't so short He cannot save
even those of us in the darkest parts of the world.
Kelly
25 Nov 05
2 edits
Originally posted by stockenI didn't mean to imply your life is meaningless or shallow, I was
Just because I live my life so that I can satisfy my needs in life (always without hurting others, that's the key) doesn't make it shallow and meaningless. In fact, it allows me to expand my spirituality beyond what you may think possible. My love for other living beings is a complete reality to me. I don't need a religion to tell me I should respect othe ...[text shortened]... rength and power to endure the hardships (which undoubtedly hits as all at one time or another).
attempting to say that if anyone's main goal in life is to make
themselves happy it would lead to a shallow meaningless life.
I didn't say it well, my bad, sorry.
As far as the rest of what you said, I'll come back when I have more
time. I just didn't want you to think, I thought of you that way!
Kelly
25 Nov 05
Originally posted by stockenHow can random events explain consciousness? A hydrogen atom will always bond with another atom such as oxygen to satisfy its outer electron requirements. This would be an example of a chemical reaction or a random event.
I agree that's a somewhat limited analogy. You probably meant to say that if everything began without a thought, without intelligence, than we can not have been created with intelligence and the world around us could not have been such a wonderful place for us to live in, with mysteries and beauty beyond our comprehension.
I disagree. I think the reason ...[text shortened]... y may only be random to us, but in the bigger view very logical steps from one state to another.
We have free will. We can choose to do things or not. We exist outside the realm of random events and chemical reactions.
It doesn’t seem plausible that random events could ever have given rise to free will. Electrical discharges in the brain don’t explain consciousness.
25 Nov 05
How can random events explain consciousness?
Read some books; you'll love them. Arguments from personal incredulity are worthless, especially with your tiny knowledge of the subject.
A hydrogen atom will always bond with another atom such as oxygen to satisfy its outer electron requirements. This would be an example of a chemical reaction or a random event.
Are you saying that chemical reactions are random and thus not designed by God?
Please, explain how the random interaction of the building blocks of life cannot give rise to consciousness.
25 Nov 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressWhat do you suppose intelligence is? How can one describe intelligence?
Science fails to consider the source of all things. The big bang is lacking in that explosions destroy they don’t create.
If one throws a pile of bricks on the ground they don’t magically form a house. It takes intelligence to create something meaningful.
In modern computer science there's a lot of talk (well, not so much anymore) about ai (artifical intelligence). AI is nothing but a set of collected logical conclusions connected together in a knowledge database. When the right program (the program being the AI) gets to traverse this database in response to a query, it can seem to us that the computer is in fact intelligent.
There are expert systems that can outwit humans today (I do believe Kasparov was defeated by such a system in chess about a decade (?) back).
Some would say that that's not really intelligence. It's a prefactured set of rules connected such that a program using them can appear intelligent. But then again, how can we be sure that's not how we work? We may have a bigger database, but we too make conclusions and derive answers from our previous knowledge and experiences, similar to what an expert system would.
My point is, that (imo) intelligence is nothing more than synaptic sequences crossing over between memory ingrams helping animals decide how to interpret what their sensors tells them about the surrounding. (Yes, I'm a trekie.)
You could easily argue that the computer was built by an intelligent being (the human) and that just like a computer must be manufactured by something intelligent, humans must have been "manufactured" by something even more so intelligent. (Because, obviously nature and the universe is far more complicated, beautiful and breathtaking than an IBM mainframe). That would be a good argument, but also reveal a flaw in the logic behind the concept of a God. What intelligent being created him? Where did it all start?
I agree, that those questions are irrelevant to a believer in Christ, simply because Christ is the one you would care to follow and accept in your heart. Christ himself will have to worry about who created him. But to me these are very important questions. To me, it makes much more sense trying to find out how life can begin from random events, than to simply accept that it was God who created us all.
Atoms floating freely in the vacuum of space, randomly bumping in to each other. Some atoms are attracted to each other by the fact that they complement each others number of protons and electrons, gradually building molecules. As moleculs come across each other they either attract or repel each other, still based on what components they're made of. The most simple interaction, to attract or repel against each other has been formed. More complex "behaviour" are built as more complex structures of moleculs are formed and slowly, over eons of time, life as we know it gradually takes form.
You may easily find flaws in my text, simply because I don't fully understand meta physics. I'm just saying that to me it makes much more sense; because if there is a God, the theory of randomness bringing life, would explain even the existence of God. The question of what was before that, and before that, and before that... is still very hard to understand 🙂
25 Nov 05
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayApology accepted. 🙂
I didn't mean to imply your life is meaningless or shallow, I was
attempting to say that if anyone's main goal in life is to make
themselves happy it would lead to a shallow meaningless life.
I didn't say it well, my bad, sorry.
As far as the rest of what you said, I'll come back when I have more
time. I just didn't want you to think, I thought of you that way!
Kelly
Define meaningless and shallow, please.
25 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by SoothingWhat do you suppose intelligence is? How can one describe intelligence?
What do you suppose intelligence is? How can one describe intelligence?
In modern computer science there's a lot of talk (well, not so much anymore) about ai (artifical intelligence). AI is nothing but a set of collected logical conclusions connected together in a knowledge database. When the right program (the program being the AI) gets to traverse this d ...[text shortened]... of what was before that, and before that, and before that... is still very hard to understand 🙂[/b]
In modern computer science there's a lot of talk (well, not so much anymore) about ai (artifical intelligence). AI is nothing but a set of collected logical conclusions connected together in a knowledge database. When the right program (the program being the AI) gets to traverse this database in response to a query, it can seem to us that the computer is in fact intelligent.
There are expert systems that can outwit humans today (I do believe Kasparov was defeated by such a system in chess about a decade (?) back).
Some would say that that's not really intelligence. It's a prefactured set of rules connected such that a program using them can appear intelligent. But then again, how can we be sure that's not how we work? We may have a bigger database, but we too make conclusions and derive answers from our previous knowledge and experiences, similar to what an expert system would.
My point is, that (imo) intelligence is nothing more than synaptic sequences crossing over between memory ingrams helping animals decide how to interpret what their sensors tells them about the surrounding. (Yes, I'm a trekie.)
Intelligence is not the same as consciousness. Computers don’t have emotions, etc.
You could easily argue that the computer was built by an intelligent being (the human) and that just like a computer must be manufactured by something intelligent, humans must have been "manufactured" by something even more so intelligent. (Because, obviously nature and the universe is far more complicated, beautiful and breathtaking than an IBM mainframe). That would be a good argument, but also reveal a flaw in the logic behind the concept of a God. What intelligent being created him? Where did it all start?
I agree, that those questions are irrelevant to a believer in Christ, simply because Christ is the one you would care to follow and accept in your heart. Christ himself will have to worry about who created him. But to me these are very important questions. To me, it makes much more sense trying to find out how life can begin from random events, than to simply accept that it was God who created us all.
I understand. It is difficult for us to accept that something has always existed. Nevertheless, this is what I believe based on my interpretation of the scripture and materials that I have read. God was always there. Nothing created him. He is the ultimate source of everything.
I am fully aware that we live in a cause and effect universe. We bring time and space to everything, and it is difficult to conceive of anything lasting forever or not needing a starting point. It is interesting though that science acknowledges that energy can never be created or destroyed. We are energy. Our consciousness is energy. According to science our consciousness has always been and can never be destroyed; so if our consciousness is eternal, where do you suppose it came from?
Atoms floating freely in the vacuum of space, randomly bumping in to each other. Some atoms are attracted to each other by the fact that they complement each others number of protons and electrons, gradually building molecules. As molecules come across each other they either attract or repel each other, still based on what components they're made of. The most simple interaction, to attract or repel against each other has been formed. More complex "behavior" are built as more complex structures of molecules are formed and slowly, over eons of time, life as we know it gradually takes form.
Yes, this all lies within the realm of impersonal chemical reactions. It doesn’t explain how consciousness came about. Molecules do not have free will. A hydrogen atom cannot decide whether it wants to bond to oxygen or not, it just does it. Free will is unique to sentient beings. Random impersonal events cannot explain this phenomena.
You may easily find flaws in my text, simply because I don't fully understand meta physics. I'm just saying that to me it makes much more sense; because if there is a God, the theory of randomness bringing life, would explain even the existence of God. The question of what was before that, and before that, and before that... is still very hard to understand 🙂
Randomness does not have to explain God if God created randomness. If God created the universe then the natural laws are his laws. Science is God’s law.
It is simpler to accept that God was never created but has always been the source of all things, the ultimate source of energy that science acknowledges has always been and always will be.
I appreciate your arguments. It’s refreshing to have an atheist actually make some points rather than simply dismiss the idea of God with a bunch of trash talk. Unfortunately this seems to be the way most atheists at this site make their arguments.
25 Nov 05
2 edits
Originally posted by stockenI don't mean to start a quarell (because I promised not to), but I find it peculiar, that most religious people consider themselves saved and the rest of us are damned for all times (unless we repent and accept God).
I don't mean to start a quarell (because I promised not to), but I find it peculiar, that most religious people consider themselves saved and the rest of us are damned for all times (unless we repent and accept God).
If this is so, to which religion should one turn? Clearly, islam and christianity is not the same (although followers of both religions claim ...[text shortened]... uld believe in a supernatural, all-encompassing being that's our creator, protector and savior.[/b]
I don’t subscribe to this notion. I plan to start a thread in the near future about how we all go back to God.
If this is so, to which religion should one turn? Clearly, Islam and Christianity is not the same (although followers of both religions claim that their religion is the right one, so in that sense they are the same). There are many different religions, and who's to say which one is the right one?
Perhaps the different religions are different paths to God.
I'm not gonna say that there is no God, because I don't know that. We cannot know what we cannot sense. And we cannot be sure that our interpretations are correct all the time. I may wake up one night, seeing a holy angel and think that there is a God and that this God is speaking to me. Then again, I may just be dreaming or hallucinating.
Sounds to me like you're more of an agnostic.
How can you be absolutely sure, that Jesus christ exist, and that he cares for you?
Evidence has to be sought after in order to be found.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when yee shall search for me with all your heart.
Edit: If a disease plagues people, the scientists search for a cure. They don’t assume that no cure exists simply because they lack evidence. In the same way man’s separation from God can be considered the plague of this world.
Again, I'm not trying to change your views. I just wish to understand. I don't think this discussion will make me a Christian or you an atheist. These questions aren't exactly novelty. They've been asked by hundreds of people a hundred times over. I still haven't heard an answer that can make me understand why anyone would believe in a supernatural, all-encompassing being that's our creator, protector and savior.
I understand and appreciate your position. I’m pretty open minded when it comes to these matters as well. I don’t like to accept things unless they make sense to me.